This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.
2 Likes
This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.
1 Like
Aw looks like Boris is back from his time out. 
Still doesn’t know how to play nice and it seems he hasn’t learned his lesson.
But I digress.
Back to your post.
No you weren’t clear because you brought up @Eleven talking about differences in components of the same type so that if you had 20 T10s they may not all sound the same. (Audible differences.)
But to your point on differences in clocks…
I think it could make a difference. In the review, they found a bit of noise around -50db. (You can go back and find the link.)
If you go to Ian Canada’s site. He shows a noise graph of a SC cut oscillator chip where the noise floor at 1kHz was around -160db, which is a significant difference. Per the review, the -50db noise could be audible to some. -160db would only be audible to Boris.
Should add that there is a significant price difference.
He’s selling the low jitter clock for $35 USD.
He’s selling the SC Cut clock for $180 dollars.
A 6x premium.
Will you hear 6x of a difference over the stock clock in the Rose gear?
I doubt it. Which goes back to the whole diminishing returns.
It is a good thing Boris because I was about to go on a hunger strike. Which would suck for me because I like food.
This is going off the rails a bit. I was never talking about QA/QC. I was just saying that I doubt anyone could hear a difference between a T8/T10 and an RS130, all associated equipment being the same. These machines are just supplying digits to a DAC.
1 Like
So do I. And having a good dinner is far more satisfying than pointing out that @Smegel is an idiot with no clue about any subject he decided to start barking about for the hundredth time.
It’s not even that they couldn’t, it’s that there literally isn’t any difference (well, assuming that you manage to get RS130 to work long enough without exhibiting some showstopper software bug). Nor would there be any with a $200 mini-PC which is superior to either 
There’s more to the DAC than just the chip.
And again, it depends on the rest of the gear and the person.
I can’t be certain, but I don’t think you read what I write. I think you read what you think I write.
1 Like
I did read what you wrote…
And the answer is that it depends on what in the rest of the path and the individual listening.
What you missed is the part of what else is in the path. Each piece of gear has the ability to color or degrade the sound. However if you consider that GaNFET amps for example tend to be neutral or clean… what is above them in the path is what you’re hearing. And if the other components are the same … meaning a DAC or Pre-Amp… Then any difference you could potentially hear would be the transport.
Now that said… you are questioning if anyone could hear a difference. I got that. I’m assuming that there will be some who can. The only way to know for sure would be an ABX test.
I don’t disagree with your assertion. (That no one would be able to hear a difference. ) However I do believe the probability that someone can hear a difference is still > 0.
And if you go back to what I had written earlier… that the further up the food chain, the less likely that the component influences what you hear. That there is a diminishing rate of return.
Sorry.
1 Like
I give up. This is what I wrote 4 days ago. I am talking about the digital transport, that is all.
“I hardly believe that anyone could hear the difference between the T8 or T10 and the RS130, everything else (DAC, amplification, cables, speakers and room) being the same. Sure, one may have a preference for styling or user interface of Rose v ES. But the bits from a digital transport? Hard for me to believe. Since I have never done that test, I will defer to what everyone hears with their own ears.”
I contacted Rose about those “OFF TOPIC publicity for other products” contributions. They don’t want to do anything about … That’s either ignorance, overconfidence or just plain stupid. Next thing you know, they’ll be handing out discount vouchers when you buy other products! Irony off
A little bit of noise—at -50 dB!
And the testers’ “golden ears” can actually hear that???
As I’ve always said:
Measurements are all well and good, but can you actually hear it—in this case, at -50 dB???
Mike, I’m not going to bother subjecting myself to such nonsense anymore, because I wouldn’t hear a thing—just like with a mastered recording, where I can’t tell the difference between CD quality and Hi-Res. But maybe I have to spend 100K on a system to hear the difference. 
Wow…finally you’re on the right track!
I’ve been saying this the whole time.
We’re pretty much in violent agreement here.
Where I differ with you is that you’re dismissive of anyone being able to hear any difference.
I’m curious if you can, assuming based on some of the measurements that it is possible also that while some could hear a difference, would it matter?
At the same time… where you, I and @Eleven may not enjoy hearing the ‘smearing’. Some may actually like the sound over things that are more precise. This runs parallel to those who prefer tube sound over more precise solid state found in higher end class D like in GanFET, or some of the Purifi based circuits.
Where some may like the 2nd order harmonic distortion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah—and blah, blah, blah… I don’t want to hear it anymore, nor do I want to waste my precious time on useless things where I hear nothing but empty chatter—because never in my life, ever, will I use an external clock, let alone buy one.
“Smearing” is a word whose meaning I don’t understand as it relates to audio. Finger painting? Yes.
Speakers first, the room second—and the rest is, to put it bluntly, a secondary matter!
Stick to this golden rule and don’t obsess over clocks. Then—even with your ears, which aren’t exactly young anymore—you will truly be able to hear a difference!
You’re going to have to look it up for a precise definition.
If you go up into one of my earlier comments and see the testing of the RD160 in the review.
The author showed a graph where there was a test signal at 1kHz. There is a graph of the output of the signal where to the left and right of the signal you could see a secondary signal at -50db. The author called this out where the distance between the secondary signal and the primary signal is 50ns apart.
That secondary signal is a distortion of the primary signal and is what the author called smearing.
If you look at graphs of the oscillator chips, there is a graph of the noise in the chip. The more precise the clock, the lower the noise floor. And then the more accurate graphy at 1kHz.
Again, I am not going to be the most articulate person when it comes to describing smearing.
If we look at that graph, those data points 50ns out are reflections from the original signal and are what is being referred to as smearing. (My take) Since its at -50db it could be audible to some which was called out by the author… yet in listening tests he didn’t seem to mind it or notice it.
In this hobby, some want that precision in their music. Others don’t.
Some say that having precision will make great recordings sound great, while bad recordings sound worse. This is where you get into the listener’s preference.
Golden rule?
In this hobby the only golden rule is that you enjoy listening to the music. Everything else is secondary.
That said…
There are a lot of options when choosing gear.
You can buy separates, or AIOs. I prefer the AIOs. There are trade offs.
You can spend a fortune getting really good gear, or buy the best within your budget.
I chose the RS520 because I wanted a GaN amp, and the deal was too good to pass up.
I don’t own an external clock. The OP of this thread does and for those people, who want to buy separates and to use an external clock… go for it.
If you want to DIY and build your own gear… and you want to put in a more accurate clock? Its your money and your system.
In the end its how you enjoy the sound that matters.
Note: One of the fun things about this thread is that it forced me to learn a bit more and to think about the impact the clocks have on the system. Measurable differences? Yes. Audible? Maybe.
But I did learn more about the RD160 thru this effort.
And clocks. 