HIFI Rose merely a hobby brand or a serious business, that is the question?

[duffer5]

(My apologies for the lengthy post. Worth the read as I do my best to advocate for change to benefit us all).

Hifi Rose professes to be customer centric but rarely responds to technical requests for help. Hifi Rose often attempts to fix one problem via a system update but then breaks other features with no line of sight for additional fixes for what was working fine prior. Hifi Rose professes to welcome feedback and suggestion for updates but rarely, if ever incorporates that feedback. Now Hifi Rose removes a feature (minor for some not so minor for others) which degrades the functionality of the device (since the original software / product introduction) with little to no explanation.

I was one of the first to receive the 150b in the USA so I was fully prepared to be an early adopter and suffer the consequences accordingly. We are now 2+ years out since Mofi started distributing the Hifi Rose products in the USA and Canada. During my experience I have seen bugs come and go and new ones introduced. Expected behavior as the product matures. But what I did NOT expect is the total lack of customer support for newbie users and mature users alike. Issues arise and users seek support from Hifi Rose via this forum and directly through corporate email outreach. Overwhelmingly (I am not alone in my experience) Hifi Rose either doesn’t respond at all, or offers a very delayed response which is often filled with misinformation. Hifi Rose is often empathic and vows to be / do better but they never do in fact they have gotten worse as more users have adopted the technology.

With each iteration of system upgrades fingers are always crossed that nothing is broken and what was broken before is fixed. But that too never happens. For example in Dec '22 Hifi Rose introduced a system update that broke VU meters for those of us that use an external DAC via USB. Hifi Rose reproduced the error in short order and committed to a remedy in 2 weeks. Hifi Rose missed that date and 7 consecutive promised dates thereafter with no explanation. Finally after 94 days it was fixed keeping in mind this was an error they caused and it took them 94 days to fix. Unacceptable.

There are many examples like the above. These products are not normal Hifi they are computers and require and deserve support accordingly. There is a lot of margin in this product and the volume sold warrants an entire customer service team not just one guy in Korea who sometimes is available but often not. I did not signup for that.

All I mentioned was on the software side. But there have been a slew of issues on the hardware side where customers were without their devices for months as remedy was sought. Also unacceptable.

Distributors are barely supported by Hifi Rose as documented from Mofi directly in their email responses to me regarding a technical issue I was experiencing. Hifi Rose is slow to respond to them and has not provided the tools and training to fully support the domestic USA market. Again, unacceptable. The distributors don’t have parts on hand to even do minor warranty repairs. The parts are shipped directly from Korea to the distributor a process which can take weeks and even months and the poor customer waits with zero recourse.

So this is all about expectation setting. If I spend 5k on a Hifi device / computer the minimum expectation is that the device will work the same as the day I purchased it and any added features is a bonus but features taken away or broken from when I first purchased the device is once again unacceptable. Another expectation is there is technical and warranty support after the sale because a percentage of your purchase price supports after sales services and to date not many are being supported in a timely and complete manor. That is not an opinion that is a fact.

Hifi Rose took off like a rocket ship when they starting selling to North America and the EU so I ask again is Hifi Rose a hobby brand or a real business. A real business fully supports all levels of customers (newbies to mature) for presale and after sales support and warranty services. That is what a real brand does and sadly is a huge void in the Hifi Rose experience and one that could cripple the brand.

I have seen so many great products die due to a simple lack of customer support. If the expectations were set upfront that if you buy a Hifi Rose product today there is little to no support for you in the future (I am not talking updates but real support for today’s experiences) then I would be okay with that because that was correct expectation setting but Hifi Rose does not set expectations that way when they sell their products very much the opposite.

Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it is but Hifi Rose is at a crossroads and they need to listen to the customers that have good experiences and bad alike so the consumer experience can be refined along with the device / software itself.

[Dowster]

Seems serious to me…

[duffer5]

I value another perspective so feel free to elaborate. Keeping in mind my perspective is after sales support. As important as pre sales support and product development.

[Ryan]

Sound quality and physical components are the domain of engineers.

But the user interface, user experience, please get some outside help.

“is Hifi Rose merely a hobby for Citech ?”

[Dowster]

@duffer5

I value another perspective so feel free to elaborate. Keeping in mind my perspective is after sales support. As important as pre sales support and product development.

If you are referring in your first post to the removal of the blue VU meter, I really don’t think it is worth making any fuss over. If it is something else, then please elaborate. I have my ROSE RS150B sitting between a pair of Mcintosh MC611s, and I use the A style meter almost exclusively. IF you are excersied by the removal of the Blue meters, they weren’t the right shade anyway and clashed.

If you are referring to the removal of SMB v1 support, then that is a security risk for your home network. However, you haven’t written what it is that has upset you and what you think the company should do for you.

I have always found that for support the forums have been invaluable, with HiFi rose being responsive. I don’t think HiFi Rose are an online only company, so I would expect you to receive the support from your dealer.

For the other poster, there are multiple interfaces. The ones I use, I personaly don’t have any UX issues.

[duffer5]

@Dowster I was one of the first to receive the 150b in the USA so I was fully prepared to be an early adopter and suffer the consequences accordingly. We are now 2+ years out since Mofi started distributing the Hifi Rose products in the USA and Canada. During my experience I have seen bugs come and go and new ones introduced. Expected behavior as the product matures. But what I did NOT expect is the total lack of customer support for newbie users and mature users alike. Issues arise and users seek support from Hifi Rose via this forum and directly through corporate email outreach. Overwhelmingly (I am not alone in my experience) Hifi Rose either doesn’t respond at all, or offers a very delayed response which is often filled with misinformation. Hifi Rose is often empathic and vows to be / do better but they never do in fact they have gotten worse as more users have adopted the technology.

With each iteration of system upgrades fingers are always crossed that nothing is broken and what was broken before is fixed. But that too never happens. For example in Dec '22 Hifi Rose introduced a system update that broke VU meters for those of us that use an external DAC via USB. Hifi Rose reproduced the error in short order and committed to a remedy in 2 weeks. Hifi Rose missed that date and 7 consecutive promised dates thereafter with no explanation. Finally after 94 days it was fixed keeping in mind this was an error they caused and it took them 94 days to fix. Unacceptable.

There are many examples like the above. These products are not normal Hifi they are computers and require and deserve support accordingly. There is a lot of margin in this product and the volume sold warrants an entire customer service team not just one guy in Korea who sometimes is available but often not. I did not signup for that.

All I mentioned was on the software side. But there have been a slew of issues on the hardware side where customers were without their devices for months as remedy was sought. Also unacceptable.

Distributors are barely supported by Hifi Rose as documented from Mofi directly in their email responses to me regarding a technical issue I was experiencing. Hifi Rose is slow to respond to them and has not provided the tools and training to fully support the domestic USA market. Again, unacceptable. The distributors don’t have parts on hand to even do minor warranty repairs. The parts are shipped directly from Korea to the distributor a process which can take weeks and even months and the poor customer waits with zero recourse.

So this is all about expectation setting. If I spend 5k on a Hifi device / computer the minimum expectation is that the device will work the same as the day I purchased it and any added features is a bonus but features taken away or broken from when I first purchased the device is once again unacceptable. Another expectation is there is technical and warranty support after the sale because a percentage of your purchase price supports after sales services and to date not many are being supported in a timely and complete manor. That is not an opinion that is a fact.

Hifi Rose took off like a rocket ship when they starting selling to North America and the EU so I ask again is Hifi Rose a hobby brand or a real business. A real business fully supports all levels of customers (newbies to mature) for presale and after sales support and warranty services. That is what a real brand does and sadly is a huge void in the Hifi Rose experience and one that could cripple the brand.

I have seen so many great products die due to a simple lack of customer support. If the expectations were set upfront that if you buy a Hifi Rose product today there is little to no support for you in the future (I am not talking updates but real support for today’s experiences) then I would be okay with that because that was correct expectation setting but Hifi Rose does not set expectations that way when they sell their products very much the opposite.

Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it is but Hifi Rose is at a crossroads and they need to listen to the customers that have good experiences and bad alike so the consumer experience can be refined along with the device / software itself.

[Bruab]

It sounds to me they had no streamers from other companies for testing and seeing how things are done in our days at their R&D department! Kind of we know everything….
Yes, it’s very disappointing given the cost they charge for their gear….

[colin]

It’s a shame but i have to agree with how duffer5 feels about HiFi Rose.

It appears there is just one person looking after these messages and they are not
providing constructive answers to questions and problems users are having.
I have asked a very important question as far as I am concerned and never got any
sort of reply.

If you are going to sell worldwide backup in all countries should be exemplary as the
equipment is not cheap.

[rob63]

From a hardware & sound quality perspective I don’t have too many qualms with the 150b.2 channel reproduction is excellent. I was hoping it would have the ability to passthrough multichannel/atmos files to my avr but oh well. I use my Roon Nucleus & Kodi as a workaround for multichannel. The 150b works great as a Roon endpoint. Without Roon however, I would have returned it. The media management aspects of the software is still too buggy/cumbersome. I use the Rose app pretty much for just on/off.

[Budy55]

I too agree with the comments of duffer5. The after market service? Is unacceptable for a product at this price point. I am disappointed with my purchase and have seriously reconsidered my future purchase of the Rose RA180 amplifier.

[ROSELOA]

Hello, we’ve read your post carefully word by word, and without making any excuses, we acknowledge that we have made mistakes in both software and hardware issues and customer support. We will take your advice to heart and make efforts to provide you with more satisfactory feedback. We hope that there will be nothing for you to feedback, but if there is, we will do our best to meet your expectations.
We apologize deeply to all the customers who love HiFi Rose, and we are also very grateful. We would like to express our sincere gratitude to @duffer5 for giving us sincere advice.

[duffer5]

Thank you for your reply but with all due respect I was expecting this exact reply.

I can reference at least a dozen like replies to other Hifi Rose users where Hifi Rose obviously fell
short for the customer resulting in some user returning their units, others waiting months for repair parts, and the majority having to endure new and old software bugs that don’t get addressed in a timely fashion.

Let me paraphrase “we will try and do better and we are sorry we disappointed you. Please accept our apologies.”

This very reply is throughout dozens of threads where Hifi Rose neglected to reply to desperate users seeking help.

I have the exact reply from Hifi Rose via email when I was seeking a hardware compatibility issue with no response from Hifi Rose for weeks.

So once again, and not to be rude, “ I will believe it when I see it.” There is a difference in saying you want to do better as a company but doing better is what needs to happen.

As you work on your streamer only box which will bring in new users to your brand keep in mind Hifi Rose has left their loyal long term users in the proverbial dark with little to no technical support. Those new users you seek will expect support for a very technical device for some.

A good start is adding more people to this forum from Hifi Rose to address technical issues in 24 hours or less. Keeping in mind that the people who address the concerns have the training to be helpful. Unfortunately the replies from Hifi Rose are not only delayed by days, weeks and months but are often filled with misinformation.

I would also consider adding live chat as a support option so users and Hifi Rose can work through issues in real-time. Cost should not be an issue as volume sales and margins should have supported this effort months ago. Each portion of each sale is prepaid for after sales support and warranty service (if needed).

Hifi Rose has a reputation of having novel Hifi products that look and sound amazing but if you need support from customer service there is no support. In fact I would say for such a brand with so much potential you have the worst customer service in the industry because you only have one person who sparsely addresses request for help which in reality is not customer service and that is slowly becoming your reputation.

Like I said and others have shared you are at a crossroads. If the lack of customer support continues Hifi Rose won’t.

@ROSELOA @ROSEHAN

[alessandro]

I think @duffer5 has hit the proverbial nail right on the head. My apologies for the length of this reply.

As a proud owner of two (not just one…) RS150, I selected Rose and put my faith in the brand because I was smitten by the clarity and quality of the sound reproduction.

I love the sound my RS150 produces and that’s the main reason I have purchased another one.

My use of the unit(s) is pretty limited, so perhaps I haven’t experienced as many issues as many others here, and I would not regard myself as an hi-fi expert or a hi-fi buff, I just have a very good ear that likes to listen to good music…nevertheless, over 19 months ago, when I first started ripping mine and 3 other close friends’ CD collections (literally hundreds and hundreds of CDs…), I did experience a wide variety of unexpected problems which took some time to fix and with a few small ones still to be fixed. The net result is that - because of some of the risks still lurking in the software - when I buy a new CD, I rip it elsewhere and then load it up the Rose…

Overall, following this Forum over the last couple of years, it feels like the best way to enjoy the Rose is to use it as a Roon endpoint.

Many users have pointed this out clearly deploying Roon, a much better developed, stable and user friendly software business, as a way to completely bypass the Rose user software. That alone says something already. My overall usage doesn’t justify paying for a pricey Roon subscription, nevertheless I paid top $ dollars for my first and - just a month ago - my second RS150…so frankly I feel a bit cheated…

Anyway, for what it’s worth here are my suggestions to the Rose team:

In order to change your output and - as @duffer5 has said “walk the talk”, you perhaps really need to consider organising and structuring yourself differently. Ownership and management of the business must put far more resources and headcount on the software side as well as on the customer facing side of your operation.

Across any business sector (from food to hospitality, from automotive to electronics), the true companies that are ‘customer centric’ have processes in place that action what the end/paying user inputs and feedbacks. I can mention to you dozen of brands/companies that have understood and implemented this completely, from head to toe. Unsurprisingly, these are also businesses that keep on growing rather than risking losing their initial customers like yourselves.

Forgive me to also to add the following point that you might find uncomfortable reading:

You might want to consider breaking off your traditional hierarchical structure which is very common in Korean culture. Throughout my career I have worked with Korean business people and I have always remained astounded of how these dynamics stop you being agile, adaptive and responsive, let alone fully competitive in a global marketplace.

You are selling your products everywhere, so you must develop understanding across other cultures and nationalities too. For example, what’s wrong - to start with - with beginning to hire foreign people within your business and within your ‘customer support’ team? There would be no ‘lost in translation’ output which is so frequent to notice on this Forum and then - given that you sell all over the world - you really need to break up from the confines of your national culture and begin to listen to what people using your products tell you. We actually kind of feel sorry for you having to justify and apologise for something which might be broken up at a structural/business-organisational level.

I say this because I often read @ROSELOA and less often @ROSEHAN literally ‘ferrying’ requests to ‘the software team’ and just being ‘water carriers’ between what the people using your products say and what your engineers/technicians (here comes the hierarchical point…) have decided to prioritise…most likely, your technical/engineering personnel might also have more power in your organisation and literally call all the shots, when - as it goes - they shouldn’t…Customer centric brands operating in a global market are not structured the way you are.

You should consider the suggestions of a live chat or literally doubling/tripling your customer facing resources and empower them more within your organisation.

‘Customer support’ should not be a different ‘department’ manned by just two very helpful and polite guys as yourselves but - perhaps - a working experience for of each and everyone working at Rose. The most successfull businesses have CEOs and leaders that come from a deep knowledge of the end customers/users.

Clearly, your products were not ready for world sales when launched. Your engineers didn’t appreciate the implications of a wider and more international user base, just think about all menus in poor English, as one of the most obvious examples.

Nevertheless, the Rose team has made progress and worked on fixing many aspects which were not ready at launch - once again, I had an absolute nightmare ripping CDs when I bought my first Rose, but - 19 months on - I’ve now learned on what the unit can do and for the things that I have to do elsewhere avoiding the Rose software (eg: ripping CDs in boxsets or in multi-disc releases).

Of course, building up on the original question of this valuable post, all this if you’re committed about being a serious (and growing) business. But, nothing wrong with this scenario either, if you’re instead keen on just being a niche brand with a cult following (and no/or just limited long-term growth), just say so and all of us as beta testers, loyal, unrewarded, ‘original’ users, we’ll take stock of it.

[traveler138]

This is one of the best topics I have read since owning my 150b. I share many of the same issues, concerns and views. More than once I have considered selling the unit for another more stable product/brand. Initially I referred others to the 150 but do not any longer due to the frequent bugs.

I would appreciate reading about the specific changes and customer support improvement commitments HIFI Rose will implement in response to these concerns. I will appreciate seeing those revisions in action even more.

You can bet there are many many more customers who are not taking the time to weigh in who feel the same.

It is a crossroads moment.

[allan46]

WHOW ABOUT A YEAR AGO i was hours away to buy a 150 cancelled at the last minute ,glad i did . note hifi press were giving rave reviews when full of bugs , a year gone still the same al

[Andre]

Bought my 150A in july 2022 and still i am amazed about this wonderfull machine. It is Roon source to my speaker and headphone setups.

Very happy with it.

[Jeep]

Wow. Is this the Karen picketing club?
So much entitlement. So many experts.

Already the title is a clickbait. Do you have any idea how much of a niche business high end Hifi is? How unfair it is to compare support for a complete OS+Apps on the scale of thousands is to what you seem to expect from the billions of Google Android users.

Big apps in the play store are hugely supported by large teams dealing for the most part only with software.

The Rose equipment is mainly hardware in low quantities. Any simple screw, transistor and capacitor has to be sold for a retail price 5 times as much or you won’t be in business long. And since Rose stands for quality those are not the 2¢ resistors and $0.25 opamps they use. So most of the price you pay, and what makes Rose far beyond cheap is low quantities special hardware. Have you seen any streamer with a big screen that responds like it? How many GaN fet amplifiers do you know under 2k? Do you have any idea of sales quantities?

When you look at it realisticly any high end hifi brand is run by idealistic hobbyists because it’s a very bad route to get rich quick.

I think the Rose team does a good job at making first rate products that are unique and do many things no-one else has. And software support is really good if you think about how many things come together in a product with such small sales compared to other products like mobile phones or tv’s.

I have owned Hifi products that are very, very renowned that took months to get repaired or not at all. And at a very steep cost.

Also I have a lot of experience in building computers and audio and have tried to put together a silent streamer system but never got near the looks and functionality of the Rose streamer. And that’s without any support. I am very satisfied and I enjoy my streamer a lot.

[Bruab]

Saying all of this but we still have no shuffle feature which has earned the name - once again my Olive 4HD could manage that 12 years ago with 20000 songs with no problems - and the rescan feature is in my opinion a joke! So don’t give me all the excuses! I give you another example - they didn’t even test to connect and disconnect headphones when the ROSE is set to fixed output!!! Therefore, please don’t pretend all is fine

[Jeep]

I’m not saying everything is fine. But I am not complaining. And I am not demanding anything. I know what it means to create something. And that it’s impossible to satisfy everyone if I even have to make compromises to my own hopes and expectations on the start of my design.

If you want something done from anyone after the sale it’s better to behave nicely. "Always be nice to anyone who has access to your toothbrush " [The Equaliser 2]

That’s the nice way of putting it. My observation as a European is that Americans are rude and demand everyone bow to their wishes ‘or else’. That will backfire in dealing with Asians who are very polite and only react to equally polite people who understand that ‘hm, yes. This is complicated matter’ means ‘No’ in English. I won’t give you the American translation.

If I buy a Swiss army knife I don’t expect it to contain a stone chisel or an electric drill.

I think we already discussed the shuffle feature. I’d say buy an MP3 player.

Also, did you consider that engineering means that you need to know how to make choices? Every product has compromises to fit a certain purpose. For instance ease of use and security are always at odds. So are quality and complexity. Complexity and longevity.

When I bought my DAC I understood that it was made with the purpose of giving the best possible sound quality for the money. That means it doesn’t have volume control at all. No headphone output. And no remote. I knew that and I respect that. These would have been my choice too.

Volume control means added complexity. Complexity means degradation of sound quality. An extra crappy analog volume control for the headphones would mean more features, more chance of breaking, double the knobs on the sleek designed fascia and… Worse sound. So the engineers decided to only use the ‘almost free’ digital volume control for the HP output. That’s a compromise that gives the best sound quality.

And you’re whining because you don’t understand why and don’t want to use a workaround for best sound?

In this world, the laws of physics are limiting. Not everything is possible, compromising is an art. De gustibus non disputandem.

[melm]

I would add my comments humbly. I bought an RS250 many months ago. It appealed to me as a Roon endpoint, and it had some added features I liked, such as high quality video playback. It’s unfair to complain that features have not been added. They fixed time zones pretty quickly (adding Mountain time), and I’ve seen some fixes to the VU function, altho you still can’t control them from the iOS remote.

Mainly, the sound of the 250 is excellent, playing the radio, or passing Roon at multiple resolutions. Graphically, the HIFI Rose is beautiful to look at and always gets positive comments from fellow audio buffs.

No, it’s not perfect. I’ve struggled with a few well known brands, but the HiFi Rose staff have cleaned up a lot of bugs in the time I’ve owned it.

As an American who also lived and worked in Europe I’m quite sensitive to the rather demanding culture that Americans bring with them. I understand it, but it doesn’t work in much of Europe and certainly Asia.

The HiFiRose people are skilled engineers who have created a capable and quite beautiful product. They are listening and I see changes coming quite frequently.

On the other hand it’s fair to say the product as launched wasn’t quite ready for world sales. The software engineers didn’t seem to understand world time zones, and the menus were often not in good English. That seems something that should not have happened in a product designed to be used outside of Asia, but it did and these things are being fixed.

If you like the product, and still aware of it limitations, I’d suggest patience. I think they will get there.

If it promised features they haven’t delivered that’s between you and your dealer. Return it, or sell it as I believe there is a robust demand for HiFi Rose.

In my use case, it delivers first rate audio quality, pairs well with Roon, and its graphical display is unequalled by any product I’ve seen.

I’m sticking with it, and hopeful that there will be a general, rapid cleanup of issues that are lacking for a majority of users. Once that is done I hope they will take on some of the smaller requests people have.

In my estimation, it does what it advertised it did. As I buried myself into daily use I found some issues, but they were addressed.

I do agree about quicker response on the forum, and live chat from some English speaking employees would be a real plus.