New RS250 USER- Should I connect my SMSL M400 DAC?

ROSE Products RS250
#1

I just purchased my RS250 yesterday. I have not connected it yet. I have 2 existing DACs that I use >
SMSL M400 & GUSTARD X16 - both are MQA and both are very well rated for their class.

It worries me that the RS250- User Manual mentions connecting an external DAC if we want. I would think that if HiFi Rose thought highly of their Internal DAC, it would not be mentioned in their manual.

I have another reason for keeping an External DAC. I have the external box that takes the SACD & DVD Audio Digital HDMI -signal from my OPPO 105 -and breaks the copy-protection of the SACD and allows me to play SACDs digitally…and it is amazing. Both of my DACs have i2s inputs.

I can keep that function separately from my RS250 - if the internal DAC is worthy …of everyday use.

I would greatly appreciate any knowledgeable opinions, of people who have had this issue.
Much Thanks to all,
Mike S.
New Jersey USA

#2

Trust your ears - if you still own the DAC, just add it (if not drivers needed).
I have the RS150, and already tried some DAC. I would have to invest a lot more money for an external DAC, to reach another level. Something like Denafrips Terminator or Holo Audio Spring/May KTE.
If you have a chance, try it and leave your personal experience here with us.

#3

I don’t own the SMSL or the Gustard DAC, but using other DACs (ifi Gryphon and Burson Conductor 3xp) with the RS250.
With both the SQ is much better than using the internal DAC from the RS250.
The RS150 has a complete other design…

#4

That’s disappointing for $2600. it should have anappropriate DAC for the price-point.

#5

The DAC itself is not the problem, but the implementation.
I’ve also a Matrix Audio Element i2, which uses the same DAC like the RS250, but sounds better in using the analogue outputs.
Because I’m using the RS250 only with headphones (and the integrated headphone amp can’t drive my headphones) and an external DAC/headphone amp I’m not affected by the internal DAC.
But it seems, that soon the RS250a will come out and this one should have a better SQ:

#6

thank you all very much !!! Its’ 48 hours and I have learned a lot so far. My only complaint…sort of…s, but far is that the remote lags. I know its’ bluetooth…you need to use a Tablet to take advantage of the features, and to be able to see everything clearly…
Mike S>
New Jersey USA

#7

For a streamer the dac is important. Since most people don’t even know what a dac is its good to have one built in. It also saves you room and looks better. The streamer itself is rather small and you do want a big screen, right? So there’s plenty of extra space for a dac.

I have a the smsl SP400 and DP5 (now upgraded to the RS250) and almost bought the M400 dac with the Ak4499 chipset, but chose the Denafrips Ares instead (lol, watching him in ‘Wonderwoman’ right now). Both are great dacs and very good value for money.

I know a lot about dacs and have tried and modified many. There are two basic methods of conversion: first and oldest is multibit, ladder or R2R dacs (often non-oversampling) and later came the ‘sigma delta’ 1 bit, high oversampling ic (chip) dacs that are easier to produce. They have different requirements for the output stage. They sound basically different and both have a fanbase.

That is why it is a must to supply a streamer with several digital outputs. So you don’t have to miss out on your preferred sound signature.

R2R is regarded as natural sounding, ‘soft’ highs, good space, depth and non fatiguing. More analog (dangerous words)
DS is regarded as (overly) detailed, bright, powerful bass, good spatiality. Very ‘digital’.
All of this however is very dependent on implementation and parts quality.

I think you should use your M400 dac. It has a fine dac-chip, the same as the much more expensive RS150 (but mind my previous statement). It is unfortunate the RS250 doesn’t have an i²s output, but the usb output is almost as good.

That said, even though my preference is strongly toward R2R, I think the internal es9038q2m dac is really not bad. It’s a 2 channel version of a recent best ESS chipset.

I wish I had the space and money for a Denafrips Terminator + or Holo May… Although I love vinyl best.

I forgot to say: MQA is nice to have if you need it. But it costs you, the hardware manufacturer and the software company licensing fees. It’s not lossless, proprietary and it’s not good for the music industry. In fact it’s an elaborate marketing scam. Better use real 16/96 or higher flac (or w/e lossless codec).

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#8

Just curious if the new chip inside RS250A will be a step up from the old RS250 so we don’t have the issues mentioned here.

#9

I don’t see any problem with the internal dac of the RS250. It’s perfectly adequate for the price. In Europe the retail was €2200, so if I were to guess the internal dac would sell seperately for half that.

Do take notice that I just got mine a week ago and it sounds better now as when it was new. My dealer attended me to this already, it’s the usual ‘burn in’ time that some people have difficulty with believing. But it does improve from quite shrill to neutral with a bit of warmth.

I was fortunate to buy the last new RS250 at a discount. The new RS250A is now €2600. For me it doesn’t add anything other than the black colour. But if you are going to use the internal dac, the improved clock and discrete opamps for the output stage will give a definite improvement. As I stated: implementation is very important. I don’t know the new chip, but I don’t count on large improvement there because the old one is great. The only thing I can think of is the ESS bump in the highs that, if not addressed, can lead to stridency. Maybe the new chip tackles that? No idea.

If I had chosen the new black RS250A, 1; I wouldn’t have been able to buy it now, and 2: it’s an €850 difference. That’s the more than I payed for my Denafrips Ares.

To conclude, yes the new version will sound better through the internal dac.

My personal opinion; for many music fans that play over pc or laptop, a pure streamer without dac at half the price would be a lot more tempting since they usually already have a proper dac to taste.
And a seperate amplifier in the same form factor similar like in the 520 (a GaN FET of ~100W) with a matching price. Like a scaled down version of the RS150b and RA180… :thinking:

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#10

Hi @Jeep could you share why you ended up with the RS250 + Denafrips Ares?

I am thinking, instead of getting the new RS250A, I will get the older and cheaper RS250 and spend the savings on an R2R external DAC. This way I will have 2 sound signatures (1 technical and 1 organic to choose from).

Since I’m addicted to MQA, Denafrips are out of the question, which leaves me with 3 MQA-capable options: the “cheapish” Topping D70 Velvet, “middling” SMSL D400EX and the higher end Gustard A26 (using the fancy AK chips).

Which of these options do you think is a good pairing to the RS250 to provide a sound signature from AKM chips with R2R (Gustard A26).

Since you have an RS250, your opinion is much appreciated.

#11

I have a long history with CD players that never satisfied me. Then about 15 years ago i started discovering Chinese Hifi, things I could afford. After a tube amp that I bought as a temporary replacement for my Audio Note that cost less than the repair I got hold of a MHZS tube CD Player. That was so much better than my expensive Myriad cd-player. Then I started modifying it and it got better and better. Finally my cd could weigh up to my vinyl.

But then, I bought a very cheap Chinese dac for €45 that uses 4 old stock Philips tda1543 chips. Just out of curiosity. It’s a multi it chip that is only 16bit but can decode 96kHz. R2R and non-oversampling. It sounded really good. Not like my old Philips cd-player. Then I did some modifications after lots of reading up. Took out the filter, changed the i/v stage. I never heard a dac this good.

Then came the epiphany. In the summer holiday there was a open concert in our 11th century church, just acoustical. Lots of reverb. I couldn’t place the exact position of each of the singers, nor every detail of the instruments. There was no artificiality, no highlights, no magnifying glass; this was real. Real musicians in a big wide space with natural echo and decay where, if you close your eyes, you can ‘hear’ the walls like echolocation. That’s what I heard with my little NOS R2R DAC.

What I heard with my, then Ak4397 + tubes dac, is nice and full. But details seems like sprinkled on, lit up like with a little halo. Un-natural. Also a bit fatiguing.

What i leaned later is that it has to do, also, with timing (or phase). Pre- and post-ringing. R2R NOS has no pre-ringing. A sort of echo in reverse which is very unnatural. Post-ringing is hard to discern from natural echo and does not bother our brain.

Temporal behaviour is more important than frequency response. Even CD @44kHz sounds good. 96kHz sounded as good as my vinyl setup then. It is important to retain all musical information in the data. You can manipulate amplitude (with an equaliser) but smearing signal temporally means you are irretrievably losing information.

That’s why I wanted an R2R DAC. And upgrade to a discrete ladder dac that could also handle DSD and >96kHz. With usb-in. In other words: up to date inputs. And the Denafrips Ares does all that.

The Ares does have a warmer signature and better micro-dynamics and a wide and especially deep Soundstage. Even if the treble seems rolled off, it isn’t. It’s just not exaggerated like added msg. I can hear every little detail in the background clearly and unsmeared. Even if it is just their basic model. Higher models only get better, especially in details and tighter bass.

I had a different es9038q2m dac before that did quite well. I was fond of it for TV play but I sold it after I got the Ares. It wasn’t just as good and I didn’t really need it anymore. I don’t need to keep it as a reference because I know I prefer the R2R signature anyway. It was very much like the RS250 internal dac. But the Ares just lifts the sound to the next level.

I have had the Ares for 2 years now, still happy with it, and only just bought the RS250.

As to MQA: I think you’re not addicted to MQA, you just have gotten the taste of high-res! You have no idea what DSD will sound like. If you can get source material, that is. MQA might be sort of high res. However, MQA IS NOT true lossless, and not 24bit (not that that is important).

MQA does some fancy tricks but these calculations mean you miss information to start with (the ‘folding’ over means you have to throw away something) and all the calculations and oversampling means you lose information. The algorithm is trying to ‘recreate’ data that is thrown away or was never there next to a band of high frequency data it ‘unfolds’.

What makes that you can hear the dac reproduce 90kHz (from a 24/192 sampling)on a sigma delta dac is that it makes the job easier on the desperately needed low-pass filter. Because sigma delta dacs produce a lot of high frequency ‘hash’ noise. A steep filter means phase turning (again smearing in time domain) and highs roll off.

On an R2R dac with 16/96 high res files you will hear more of the original music information without any high roll-off than 24/192, or even higher, on a sigma delta dac (let alone mqa).

That’s why I said ‘if you need mqa’. When you are already tied to Tidal. There are heated debates over MQA and the makers and programmers will not go in to any details nor give any information about it other than their marketing. They are aggressively keeping it under wraps. Third party testing by a music producer/mqa license customer, painted an ugly picture. It’s bad for the customer, hardware licensees, music in general and it’s even worse for musicians.

#12

Thanks for going into your interesting history about fondness for R2R DAC. I am more convinced of its value now.

I am curious, do you just use the RS250 as streamer and send everything to Ares? If yes, do you miss the 9038Q2M signature at all for certain music?

Yes, in fact I think I am addicted to Tidal more than MQA. It has many tracks of my favorite artists and albums in higher bit depth and sampling rate, that are not available on other platforms.

As for DSD, with the few sample DSD tracks I downloaded and purchased, they sound like a completely different beast on my NAD M10 V2 (with ESS 9028 chip) in my office. It’s just so immersive, natural and detailed especially in the high frequencies. Quite unbelievable.

This is where the challenge comes in. I feel like I want to have the cake (Visual Aesthetics of RS250, MQA, DSD) and eat it too, ie. having an aesthetically pleasing streamer/DAC for the living room, and also get to experience organic sounds, whether it’s MQA or DSD.

Here is the question, which is the following do you think is a more reasonable approach:

  1. Go cheap. Skip RS250 (lose the visual aesthetics for the living room). Instead, get an R2R DAC like Gustard R26, because the Gustards work as Roon endpoint and can decode and render everything, ie. MQA, DSD.

  2. Go both (budget way) by getting RS250 + Ares 2, so I can stay on RS250 for MQA tracks, and switch to Ares 2 with everything else, ie. DSD.

  3. Go both (expensive and maybe unhealthy way for wallet) by getting RS250 (for its aesthetics) + Gustard R26 R2R DAC to decode and render everything, ie. MQA, DSD.

Hmm, some soul searching on my own may be required. But maybe to others, this is an easy decision :slight_smile: Feedback is welcome!

#13

I happen to use the RS-250 and I also have the SMSL M400 & Gustard X-16.…both great MQA DACs. The only time I find myself switching, is when I am playing a DSD 64 or 128…which are the Live Springsteen concerts, you can purchase and download, with your choice of clarity…

I have a digital box that allows SACDs to be played digitally thru the HDMI port ( i2s) and I use my OPPO 105D on for SACDs and BLUray Audio. The SMSL handles the SACDs beautifully… For $60.00 USD guys it is the biggest steal out there…SACD is DSD if it is played straight-thru digitally…That box “cracks” the Sony copy-protection" and allows you to hear your SACDs the way they were supposed to sound like…Mike

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#14

I am always for buying economical. It’s so easy to overspend and regret later. But it also happens when I buy something that I tell myself ‘will do just as well, be sensible’, always leaves that nagging feeling of ‘what if?’. Then you go buy the one you really wanted later and the sensible solution loses you money. Buyers remorse can go both ways. If you buy someone a present, don’t cheap out. And if you are treating yourself, you will know. :slight_smile:

I have used my PC for music for a long time. As an alternative to my stereo. That was when vinyl was in the ‘dark ages’. I discovered a lot of music that I now buy as vinyl reissues (or ‘first time on vinyl’). But one annoying thing that doesn’t bother as much with headphones, if you play in the living room any pc will make too much noise. It really raises the noise floor ruining the experience. Even an external harddisk can cause nasty vibrations.

I haven’t used a pc in 7 years now. So I never used Roon. I always used Foobar for flacs from my HD (mostly high res and large database). That works better than streaming for me. I like to ‘have’ things, not rent. But they say Roon is awesome. If that means using a PC… :thinking: That is not relaxed listening in my book. I have used a silent mini pc with a Touchscreen before, with foobar and my usb HD. But the thing broke down. The SMSL DP5 worked for me. Only not with Qobuz (no DLNA in the app).

With the Rose app controlling the streamer I can access everything centrally. From internal storage, streaming platform (Qobuz in my case), YouTube/RoseTube. Right from my couch.

That was thinking out loud to let you share in my way of thinking and experience. So I wouldn’t go for option 1. I enjoy the RS150 a lot more that any previous budget solution I used before. Rose really provides a solid solution.

That leaves option 2 and 3. Or might I suggest a 4th? Since you can’t predict based on what you haven’t experienced.

You don’t have to buy everything immediately. Act quick on opportunity and take it slow on the uncertain finishing part. You can get the RS250 with a nice discount now. That leaves money in your pocket without any rush. You can always decide what to do with that later while you can get to know the Rose platform and see how you like it compared to Roon. You will get all the functionality with 95% of the sound quality. And almost 100% of file compatibility (if you don’t count the missing i²s port). The internal dac is really good. Good enough if you never heard better. Good enough to buy (or save) you all the time you need.

I read a lot of fora on dacs and everyone has their preferences. Those are not always based on insight and knowledge. Or listening experience. But that is not always easy to arrange. I have invited friends from my native forum to compare dacs, amps etc. Maybe you have a local audio shop where you can compare dacs. You don’t need to bring the rs250 to compare.

There are lots of dacs and all dacs are created equal, but some are more equal than others. Just to paraphrase George Orwell. Meaning some stand out among the rest. I only just watched Tharbamars comparison of the Gustard A26/R26. It seems he preferred the new ak4499 based A26 over the fpga R2R R26. There will be a lot more reviews coming shortly.

Gustard makes good dacs for an affordable price. But so does Audio-GD, Shiit, Holo Audio and Denafrips. And don’t forget the Ladder Schuman dac. My personal choice would be the Holo Spring or Denafrips Pontus II for a significant upgrade.

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#15

What I forgot to say; don’t put a lot of trust is measurements and specs. Stupid ‘reviews’ on Audio Science Review website only use fancy measurement equipment but that guy never uses his ears. He judges everything as if ‘the science says’ is all there is. I wonder if he ever enjoys music.

Here is a nice video comparing some dacs you might be considering by a person who has good ears but little experience with dacs. (good channel too)

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#16

Thanks for the video link, it’s a fascinating watch. The biggest take away for me is,

Listening to something in person will provide better insights (or potentially higher satisfaction) instead of reading measurement tests and fora.

After absorbing your last two posts regarding your background history, your fondness for R2R DACs, advice for starting economical with sensibility, your proposed “4th option” to delay purchases, all of the sudden many additional options open up.

I am investigating a few “outside the box” ideas right now. Although it is good to have choices, it’s also frustrating at the same time because more time is needed :grinning:

Just to share a couple of additional options:

  1. Use a super Cheap Wiim Pro as streamer, then figure out which type of DAC I like or pair with: Sabre, Akahi Kasei or R2R.

  2. Get a higher end streamer, like Volumio “Rivo” then figure out which type of DAC I like or pair with: Sabre, Akahi Kasei or R2R – this surprisingly has a couple of advantages:

a) overcomes the lack of Tidal Connect issue of RS250/A
b) has multiple plugins and developing to support external HDMI touchscreens of various sizes to emulate HiFiRose’s beautiful touchscreen – but usability, convenience and integration have to be further investigated.

In any case, I have now realized how important it is to find a friendly local store to experience different DACs, or better still, make some local “HiFi” friends.

#17

As long as you realise, the RS250 will soon be sold out, so no more discount and no more affordable option.
I can’t think of any similar well thought out and balanced streamer.

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#18

Actually the “old” RS250 are already sold out at my local dealers :slightly_smiling_face:

But I think some online retailers may be willing to offer a discount. Also, I have not ruled out the following:

  1. Get RS250A – I was surprised one dealer got it in stock already and he is warning me someone else will buy it if I don’t secure it soon. Talk about pressure, but the premium price the new version demands makes it a bit hard to pull the trigger :sweat_smile:
#19

you are VERY right thank you Sir