RS130 native DSD output via USB (Pro-ISL) to MSB DAC

[Kepic]

Hi everyone,

just got the RS130 today and the soundstage is so good right out of the box (more in depth and height). Sound is still a bit suppressed to my ear and I hope it will open up after some run-in.

One thing that bothers me and to most of the owners that plays DSD file using RS130, is that now it runs DoP when using Roon to play DSD files.

Before buying RS130 I was using Melco N5 as roon bridge to play DSD file and it had no problem sending 1bit native DSD to my MSB DAC via USB (Pro-ISL) but now using RS130 the DSD is sent using encapsulated PCM (DoP).

My question, should I be worried about it? I did some research online and found some stating it’s just an PCM “envelop” carrying DSD file and it’s still native DSD. some say the otherwise that it’s not native.

Any input is appreciated

[BorisM]

DOP is still the same DSD, and will sound exactly the same, with the only caveat being that because it is, well, encapsulated, inside a fake PCM stream, even if the DAC normally acceppts, say, DSD512 and PCM 768, with DOP you would be limited to DSD256.

Getting full-rate DSD to work right from anything that isn’t a Windows box with manufacturer’s drivers is generally a crapshoot.

[Kepic]

Thank you so much Boris. Yeah I did realize there are so many criteria to get native DSD output from a source to DAC. I just asked Jonathan from MSB regarding the DoP impact and will update again once hearing back from him. For now I will just DoP through roon.

BTW I tested to output DSD from rose hifi app to DAC via USB as well and it’s native so I’m pretty sure it’s just the software communication issue between RS130 and the DAC.

[ZABOKS]

@Kepic i have no problem playing native DSD from my RS130 to my MSB Discrete or Diamond V DACs… So I’m not sure to understand your problem : Is it with Roon only ?

[Kepic]

Hi ZABOKS,

Yeah with Roon I got DoP. You got native through Roon?

I did add my NAS to RS130 DB and played DSD and I thought the path didn’t show any DoP in the chain so I believe it was native DSD through rose hifi app (stupid me forgot to take a screenshot before reset the DB)

[ZABOKS]

No i don’t use Roon since I believe Roseconnect provides a better SQ, especially in DSD… + it’s free !!!

[BorisM]

@Kepic

Thank you so much Boris. Yeah I did realize there are so many criteria to get native DSD output from a source to DAC. I just asked Jonathan from MSB regarding the DoP impact and will update again once hearing back from him. For now I will just DoP through roon.

Other than limiting the maximum data rate, there should be no impact on the quality, unless MSB really broke DOP extraction (quite unlikely). But yes, there are lots of moving parts there. Most (pretty much all) audio devices with USB use USB Audio 2 standard for communication, but the standard only defines how to move PCM.Since there is no official standard for the DAC to report what DSD capabilities it has, there needs to be some driver that the source uses to interrogate the DAC and figure out what it can do. For obvious market share reasons, manufacturers do usually supply Windows drivers (there’s a framework for it so making one is pretty easy, and Windows is at least aware of DSD). MacOS has no concept of DSD at all, so any driver would have to be completely custom, as I understand, and basically nobody bothers. With Linux there is some support, but the OS needs to be built with definitions of whatever DACs it is to support baked in.

Then you add Roon to the picture, which will only send whatever the endpoint says it will support. If other people can play native DSD to the same DAC without Roon, then the problem might also be that while the 130 does recognize the DAC properly, it is not reporting capabilities to Roon correctly… THis really seems to be the main problem here…

@ZABOKS

No i don’t use Roon since I believe Roseconnect provides a better SQ, especially in DSD… + it’s free !!!

No, it does not provide any different SQ. It is “free” though.

[ZABOKS]

Ok… I should have stated “many people feel that Roon is kind of ‘smoothing’ DSD playback”, like also many people (including me) feel that different USB cables have an impact on SQ -eventhough there is no measurements to prove it (especially by ASR)… On that aspect, I have testified on other posts in this blog that using a fiber connection thru ROSE RS720 optical hub IS a great improvement over a direct USB connection, to my MSB DAC at least !

[Kepic]

Thanks again for the detailed explanation and yes I suspect it’s ROON too but the UI is just so good. On the other hand my highest DSD format is indeed 256 (most of them are purchased on NativeDSD with which recorded in DSD256) so actually no real harm done at the moment. Let’s just hope either Roon or Rose could update their software in the future to improve the communication between equipments.

[BorisM]

You’re welcome.

I am not sure if it is Roon per se, rather than how Rose is reporting what can be played back to Roon.

For what its worth anyway though, I have a 250 and a 520, so no external DACs come into play, and while both can play a DSD512 file over the network by themselves, the maximum DSD rate (Native, no DOP) that I can select for them in Roon is DSD256, so most likely you are not really missing anything here.

[Kepic]

An reply from MSB:

quote

I wouldn’t worry 1 second about Native vs DoP. DoP is still sending the exact same data just packed differently and it all ends up in the exact same buffer formatted the same. There is no performance loss.

A little background on this “Native” vs “DoP” debate and “DoP isn’t native” idea. It was really started by a brand that couldn’t support DoP in their product…so instead of fixing their product this debate was started.

unquote

I think we all know which brand they’re talking about

[ZABOKS]

Nope… Which one is it ?