In my system its only the gain is different with the rose app, which is great because I love Roon.
Thanks for that information Gingerbeard,I was so used to using my phone as a remote.So if I understand you correctly,you believe the gain on the Rose is.38 db louder played without Roon?And you think that accounts for what some of us were hearing?Apreciate your kind help btw!
I think so, yes. I download DeltaWave. Then recorded a track in both scenarios, and they lined up almost perfectly. There were some very slight differences but I was very limited in my recording capabilities, so I am assuming that the differences were because of that. If you have a proper high quality audio interface, I’d suggest trying it out yourself. What is curious is that DeltaWave said the following after correcting for gain and time aligned:
Files are NOT a bit-perfect match (match=0.45%) at 16 bits Files are NOT a bit-perfect match (match=0%) at 24 bits Files match @ 49.9969% when reduced to 6.43 bits
I don’t know the software well enough, but that does not seem like a very good match. I have a feeling that it is because of my recording technique though, as once I was testing level-matched, they did sound the same to me.
Hey Gingerbeard,from what I have read is that a 3db increase would be imperceptible to the human ear therefore increasing Roon by.38db would also be imperceptible.So I would respectfully question that adding .38db to left and right speakers would make enough difference to notice.Your initial surprised reaction is what I am still hearing and I know it is astonishing to hear.I think that a major difference is the headroom that I have in Rose or Quobuz app.To me it’s like Roon sucks a lot of dynamics and power away even with everything turned off in Muse.I have been comparing @ a listening level of about 80- 93 db in a well-treated dedicated room.Any thoughts?(I much prefer Roon’s user interface as well).
No, there is no need to coddle people who are militantly stupid and proud of it. Not a week psses where either here or on Roon forum some goldeneared audiophile would not come claiming great and obvious SQ difference arising from a fuse, LPS, a digital cble, or, yes, bit-perfect software. Those differences ALWAYS disappear once you do a controlled comparison.
And some people, like TomTurd here, whose only argument is “it costs more, therefore it’s better, and you can’t afford it” are totally beyong any education. Ridicule is the only thing they deserve, and the only thing they get.
You would not hear it as being obviously louder. You very much would hear the slightly louder one as being better.
Not only doesn’t it do it, it, but no matter how much the “wife heard it from the kitchen” crowd might repeat it, if you have a bit-perfect signal path, you get the same output from the DAC. Physics does not care if you’ve paid $10,000 for a digital cable, or carefully selectede “better sounding” fiber, or any nonsense like that.
Now, at least on RS-520, there is (pretty deep) a menu that lets you set separate volume for every “source”. Son one can absolutely have slightly different gains between Roon, direct Qobuz or Tidal, RoseTube, and other options. That could account for any “SQ difference.”
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Which isn’t too bad, really, most proper card-carrying audiophiles would have done another sighted comparison, and kept claiming a veil-lifting difference.
As to why they keep demanding that we test that painting a streamer different color, or putting it on pure beryllium legs does not affect the sound… well, we know the sad state of STEM education in the West. Ignorant people are much easier to sell useless crap to.
What useless “crap” do I have?You lost me there Boris.
I’m not convinced in either direction, to be honest. I think context matters a lot when saying you cannot hear a 3db increase. A 3db increase from 5db to 8db vs from 70db to 73db, for instance. Or a 3db increase at 3000 hz vs a 3db increase at 45 hz, as we are more sensitive to db differences at higher frequencies. Or another example is a 3db change in a single frequency vs the whole frequency band.
If you turn your system up 3db (use your SPL meter), you’ll notice its louder.
Here, you see the Rose (Blue) is not matching up with the white (Roon). Is that more dynamic range, or is that error in my recording process, I don’t know. It is “different”, contrary to what Boris, Vik and Hifi Rose say. Without having confidence in my ability to record this properly, I simply don’t have an answer.
Thanks for taking the time to do your testing Gingerbeard. I am certainly no expert in the technical aspects of audio but it would seem that the extra blue on your graph would represent more dynamic range for the hifi rose?Also the Fletcher-Munson curves apparently have demonstrated that the human ear is more sensitive to more mid-frequency range. I am really perplexed but interested in what is causing what I perceive to be a large difference in the much more lifelike sound when I separate Roon from the equation.Do I want Roons wonderfully engaging user interface or better SQ ? I would love to have both but I wonder if it’s something I am missing in my setup? Thanks to all and a special shout out to Ginerbeard for going the extra mile!,
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I’m trying to think of a way to capture the PCM instead of going to analog to record for the Deltawave comparison. If anyone has the hardware to do so, this would be a fun test. I can try to capture it via HDMI I suppose.
I just selected ignore forever. That one always has a negative and nasty comment for everything. Such a condescending person.
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That was a general comment.
Are you sure you quite understand how decibels work?
Somewhat upgraded PC sound cards tend to have optical inputs. I’ve an external SoundBlaster for that.
Fletcher-Munson is just one of the reasons why, if you are trying to find SQ differences by ear, you must volume-match. Very precisely and at the same location etc. etc.
Now, Roon is known to be, when correctly configured, bit-perfect. If it weren’t, it would have been found long ago. The only way there can be any, let alone any audible difference would be if direct Rose playback did some shenanigans.
Far more likely explanation, in case there were actually any sonic difference, is that either Roon source volume is lower in Rose setup, or Roon is doing volume leveling (which is done in MUSE but not part of the MUSE configuration, it’s configured at the zone level). Or, maybe, the streaming service isn’t configured to use the same resolution in Roon.
I don’t have much nice to say about flat-earthers either.
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Looking at the difference between the blue(Rose) and the white (Roon),there are some tracings that are over 7db greater for the Rose.Thats very audible and would make a huge difference in dynamic range.And there’s a lot more of the “blue” meaning more music.I think that possibly Gingerbeard has confirmed with measurements what my “golden ears”are hearing which other people have noticed as well.As I go back and forth,I hear more dynamic range,fuller more articulate bass,bigger sound stage,and a more being there listening experience.I have a highly resolving system and a well treated listening room.It would be great if other people like Gingerbeard with the equipment and know how to check this out.Hoping you find something great to listen to today.Here’s something that I found recently that I think most might enjoy: Sohn….The Wheel on Quobuz,and Max NcNoun….Marley also on Quobuz.
Haha thats too funny! The song you are looking at in the graph is Sohn - The Wheel.
I’ve been listening to their other album a lot too, “Trust”. I’ll check out the others you mentioned.
I’ll keep playing with the Rose alone vs Roon.
I have an HDMI capture that goes to USB, and I think I may be able to capture the raw PCM. Don’t know when I’ll get around to it, but I’ll post again with a comparison without going to analog and my pc recording it.
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Dear Boris, your communication style is notably condescending even bordering rude. It is possible to exchange ideas without ridiculing other people, even you don’t agree with them.
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It would be, if those “other people” were if not actually educated enough to know what they are talking about , then at least sufficiently intellectually curious to want to learn something. But no, instead we get people buying “highest level” FraudioQuest cables making pronouncements about proper behavior. There is nothing to discuss in a nice and polite manner with people that ignorant.
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I did not check all the replies to this thread, so perhaps someone mentioned it, but be sure Roon is not connected to your streamer by Apple Airplay.
When setting up a streamer it sometimes picks up Airplay as a connection method and will not sound great.
Roon sounds better to me when connected properly. I am using their newer Roon Nucleus One 499 I think. It is rock solid, stable, always ready to go, and sounds great. If you are using a lap top or computer as your Roon Core, perhaps that is the issue as well.
Good Luck.
Hey GregH, thanks for the suggestion and to be honest I’m sure I don’t use Apple air play.
BTW I’m using the original Nucleus.