"pop" sound between tracks with digital coaxial cable

ROSE Products RS250
#1

Hello all, I have been using a rs250 with an external dac (weiss dac204) connecting with usb cable for years and it works fine.

A few days ago I switch the usb cable to a digital coaxial cable. Then there is always a “pop” sound when changing tracks either auto or manually. Even the sample rate is same. I have tried all output settings on digital coaxial page, such as software volumn control, dsd mode, etc. The rose os version is the newest one. I even tried the early access version. But the problem remains same.

The digital coaxial output sounds better than usb so I would like to keep using it. But this “pop” sound issue makes me feel troubled. Hope someone can help me fix it. Thank you.

#2

Hello, i guess its is related to this Problem:

#3

Thanks for the help. Seems like this is an issue can’t be fixed. I might switch to other streamer with a better sounding usb output. Thank you.

1 Like
#4

I think you should try a better USB cable or a dac with a better USB input. Because usb is better than coax. And the usb ouput of the RS is just fine. It is the usb input chip that determines the quality of the sound.
The Weisz DACs are made for recording studios where they don’t normally use USB. It is probably an afterthought. It also can’t process DSD natively, which is superior but can’t be calculated on. These are engineers choices.

I found this in a review by Goldensound, who is very knowledgeable. The guy who exposed MQA as lossy.
“Jitter performance is not great and from a product this expensive and given the performance of Weiss’ other products, this was surprising and a shame to see.”

So there you have it. It’s the usb implementation of the 204 that has jitter problems (plus others) that cause usb to sound worse. Therefore you need to feed a proper s/p-dif signal. With the caveat that it pops when the stream is stopped. That’s an annoying problem but not the fault of the Rose streamer. Buying another streamer won’t fix the Weisz dac.

Maybe gapless playback can solve it? Or ask Weisz engineering for a solution.

#5

Thanks for helping! I will try a better usb cable and ask Weiss also.

#6

I had considered getting this dac too after seeing Steve Huff his video. But I had some red flags. Old ES9018s chip for one (with the infamous ESS bump), sigma delta, missing iis input, hot output. And as it turns out clipping with some badly recorded (too much dynamic compression) material.

I wonder if the usb problem can be fixed with a DDC but I doubt it.

What I do know not to be true at all: the designer claims: “If it measures well, it sounds well”. That is not a law. There is a correlation but it’s no guarantee. Nor is the opposite true: if it measures bad it sounds bad. There are plenty of examples to the contrary. This dac seems to be one of them. As are my old Philips based DACs.

I think they used too much red pencil in this design. And still it’s expensive.

#7

Is the dac on the RS-250 not good? Why add a different one?

#8

It is good. But better is the nemesis of good.

I deliberately bought the outgoing model RS250 instead of the newer RS250a with improved dac because I want to use my own and this saved me money. The RS250 as a streamer is good enough to sport auch more expensive DAC. Also, I prefer R2R DACs to (another ES9038) Sigma Delta DAC.

The internal dac is plenty good enough and it gives a lot of extra options like the equalizer, which a lot of people really appreciate. Me too. But it sounds better with the dac I already had and particularly chose for its sound.

#9

I think dac204 includes a ddc inside, which is called int204. So I never thought there will be issues using the usb input. What dac do you recommend in this price range?

#10

I can hear a huge difference between before and after adding the dac to the RS250. The only problem is there is some “digital feel” when connecting them via usb.

#11

Sometimes it’s hard to tell. Weisz is very secretive about what’s inside. He has a huge trackrecord when it comes to digital. But this is the ‘budget model’. Swiss manufacturing is never cheap so they have to resort to cutting corners. I didn’t know about that jitter problem either, until now.

Jitter is a hard to explain problem. But it’s that digital feel that you experience. I always equated that to cheap electronics in the output stage. But it is in the input. There are different chips for spdif and usb, and none for iis (or i²s).

I have been modifying DACs for quite some time to come to the conclusion I like R2R (multibit or ladder-) DACs better than sigma delta DACs (single bit, very high frequency). Two mathematically different approaches. R2R is expensive to produce because all the resistors in the ladder need to be with very tight tolerances. Lots of fallout in chip production. SD chips avoid that problem but they produce a lot of high frequency noise and low V output. So they need a very elaborate analog output stage. R2R hardly none (I use 1 resistor to ground). That is one reason R2R sound very pure and natural. Non oversampling (NOS mode) keeps it very pure in the timing domain (no pre-ringing).

That’s why I myself am not looking for sigma delta DACs in general (but I’m not excluding anything). I found the Denafrips brand a few years ago and bought the entry model Ares II. Now I was looking to upgrade to a couple of steps higher like the price range of around €2000-3000.

  • The Denafrips Venus 12th is a significant upgrade to the Ares. Very good definition and soundstage and never fatiguing. No frills. Very well made, very good service (Alvin of Vinshine Audio).
    Another option that is also very good is the
  • Holo Audio Spring level 3 KTE (Kitsune tuned edition). Also very well made. Also natural and 3D but with a bit more ‘bite’. And it has a remote and a screen. Preamp with volume is extra. But it’s big. And more expensive. Service and communication is through the distributor.
    Then I arrive at a newcomer. Also from China with a team with international experience.
  • Laiv Harmony. It’s a beautiful little design cnc’ed from one billet. Also discrete R2R, with a clear screen, volume and a full aluminium remote. The first reviews by reviewers I trust are all very impressive, comparing it to 2-4x the price of $2700 including shipping worldwide (ex VAT).
    You can look up the reviews at 6-moons (Srajan) and on YouTube where most reviewed the Venus, Spring and 204 : Steve Huff, IWII (Srboljub), Soundnews (Sandu) and Virtual hifi from Poland who has the best sounding videos where you hear for yourself (depending on your system or HP). He records how it sounds 1m in front of his speakers with Schoeps mics. He bought the 204 for himself, the Holo May and the Denafrips.

I’m saving for the Laiv now. Not quite there yet… Now listening to the Rose rs250 because I’m testing with the Fosi ZA3’s now that I bought because of Virtual hifi. And I want remote volume control. And not unplug my whole system for recabling inside the rack. He was right about those little amps that sound almost as good as my expensive Gato amp150, only using a lot less electricity.

#12

Thanks for the information! Actually I used to own a r2r dac before, soekris 2541. But it didn’t sound close to my demand so I sold it. I will have a look to the dacs you talked about.

#13

I know of the soukris but it looked a bit to amateuristic to my taste. All very small SMD components (that are too small for me to solder on). If you look at the effort that goes into Denafrips, Holo and Laiv DACs. That’s a whole different bowl of wax.
Serious engineering. Also a lot of attention to powersupply, digital inputs with custom software (FPGA DSP) , galvanic isolation, reclocking (TXCO clocks) and software control of the tightly toreranced 4 sets of rows of resistors to produce even better tolerances (up to 0.005%). But most important is the measures taken to reduce jitter. Just look it up. Plenty of reviews.

Already some answers in there

#14

Have read many reviews already. It seems the Laiv is too good to be true…
It is now the first on my upgrade list.