RS130 won't output Native DSD on USB Output

Support
#1

Dear @ROSEHAN,
It appears that you are one of the people at Rose or the person at Rose to contact for help. I hope you can.

The RS130 converts all Native DSD to PCM using the USB output.

Output: USB “Merlot” (only this output is active)
Output Settings:
MQA Type (should be irrelevant): Authenticator
PCM Resampling (should be irrelevant): Original, Auto
DSD Mode: Native
Software Volume Control: Off
Modify the lower 8 bits…: Off

If I set the DSD Mode to DoP, it will deliver DSD to the DAC but of course only up to DSD128. So I cannot play my best recorded files, the DSD256 files.

If I set the DSD Mode to DSD to PCM, it will do just that, convert all my DSD files to PCM and send those to the DAC so my DAC can then convert them back to DSD. Seems kind of pointless.

But if I set the DSD Mode to Native, it functions as if it were set to DSD to PCM.

I have seen several similar reports elsewhere but those threads look dead or not applicable. For reference, my DAC is a Playback Designs Merlot. It is a DSD DAC designed around FPGA type conversion rather than off the shelf chip. That said, the owner/designer, Andreas Koch, was the main engineer in the development of the original DSD or SACD design as well as the recording equipment, which is still in use today. You can research his credentials if you like. If you do, you will find that he well knows how to implement DSD conversion, probably better than any other person, period. This DAC accepts Native DSD up to DSD256 or 4X DSD. I have been happily using this DAC since Oct. 2016 so I know it’s functions well.

Interestingly, the readout on the DAC changes from straight horizontal lines (no signal) to DSD256 as the RS130 begins to boot. But then, just before the display changes from “Rose” to the main screen, the display changes to PCM384. If I connect my NUC music server, the DAC reads 44.1 as default.

I noticed on another thread that if any output is selected and the software control turned on and adjusted, that the “device” will not reset to “volume off” even if the volume control is set to off, until the device is powered down and restarted. I tried this and it didn’t change anything.

Any ideas?

Thanks, Michael

1 Like
#2

Thanks for reporting. This doesn’t sound exactly like the issue I’m experiencing, but they might still be related.
What type of interconnect do you use and are you using the Rose app or e.g. Roon?

#3

@Jobbie, Hi. Do you work for Rose?

Not sure I understand your question regarding interconnect. I’m using a USB cable, of course. Maybe I don’t understand your question.

I did testing using only the interface on the RS130 at first. I do not use Roon. I have a Samsung 850 Pro SATA SSD in the bottom of the RS130 where the DSD files reside. I play them with the Rose App on the device. I have also tried using the Rose app on my ipad. Same result.

#4

You do realize you can’t use volume control on DSD? If you do it has to convert to PCM. Andreas Koch would tell you that you can’t manipulate DSD. Its intended for storing masters.

#5

Hi Michael, no, I’m not working for Rose.
You could have used other types of interconnects, like I2S, coax or AES. I see I overlooked you mentioning active USB. Sorry about that. Typically, USB should be able to work at the highest rate available. With me, that DSD256. Selecting either native DSD or DoP should work in your case was well as working with the Rose app, local files and through a Nas.
Have you tried using another USB cable to compare results?

#6

Hi Job,
Thanks for your kind reply and for clarifying.
Yeah, USB should work in Native mode but doesn’t. Others have reported this issue in other threads but no solutions were reported and those threads are inactive. I haven’t tried another cable although I have a few high end cables laying around as well as a myriad of printer types. I’ve been at this hobby a very long time, nearly 50 years. But I haven’t tried because I have 3 other music servers, all of which will play DSD256 native just fine with this cable. I suppose I could try just to eliminate the possibility. Thanks for the suggestion.
Best

1 Like
#7

I have the same issue. Not much to add but you are not alone.

#8

Thanks for the reply Duffer5.
One of your threads “Software volume control always on under USB output” was one of the ones I was referring to. There hasn’t been a reply from HiFi Rose since Oct 11 when they said,
“I immediately forwarded the email you sent to our software team and asked them to resolve it quickly. We will notify you as soon as we receive a response from the software team regarding this matter.”

Have you heard back from them? It’s been nearly 3 months.

Best

#9

I have not heard back and I have followed up numerous times. I offered to help troubleshoot but still nothing. Perplexing at best. Others are having the same issue and numbers will increase as more owners come on board.

#10

Thanks for that additional info Duffer5. It’s good to know if a bit discouraging. Basic functionality of advertising claims seems like it would be a higher priority.

Best

1 Like
#11

IMG_7721
IMG_77213024×4032 2.46 MB
IMG_7722
IMG_77224032×3024 2.63 MB

RS130 gibt einwandfrei DSD512 über USB 2.0 aus. Lediglich die Verkapselung ist DOP V1.0. Dies ist aber kein reines PCM! Schauen Sie sich bspw. die Ausführungen diesbezüglich von Paul McGowan (PS Audio) an. Prüfen Sie das Kabel (max. Länge ca. 0,6 m). Setup: Denafrips DDC und DAC

#12

January 15th… 17 days and NO Response from HiFi Rose. I see now that they do not have any appreciation for hard earned dollars being spent. This is not an inexpensive product. I don’t care how good a product is. If there is no support, it is worthless in my view. My RS130 will be returned.

#13

Hello,

In Merlot manual,

OS X (10.6.6 or later)
iTunes with or without plug-in to automate sample rate switching.
No driver software is required. OSX supports DSD playback only via
the DoP protocol which only supports single and double DSD rates.

It seems that connecting OS X to Merlot supports DSD playback only through the DoP protocol. HiFiRose’s streamer plays audio based on Linux. It’s regrettable that there is no mention of Linux in the manual. By the way, if the external DAC cannot properly accept DSD, ROSE streamer automatically converts DSD to PCM and send it out.

#14

Hello,

Why are you bringing up the manual’s reference to the Apple Mac OS X (10) operating system? It is irrelevant to the RS130’s operation with the Merlot. It is the MAC OS that only supports DSD by DoP, not the Merlot.

The Merlot accepts Native DSD through 256 as stated in the manual also.

I’ve also used the Merlot with Linux and it plays Native DSD perfectly without drivers. The only music player I tried was wtfplay. It uses a stripped down version of Linux and no drivers for the DAC.

The following is from the wtfplay manual;

2.3. Native DSD playback with USB sound devices

Unfortunately, the mainline Linux kernel does not support many USB devices in native DSD mode. One reason is that USB audio class specification does not define the DSD format. The short list of supported devices includes:

  • iFi Audio micro/nano iDSD
  • Matrix Audio X-Sabre
  • Matrix Audio Mini-i Pro
  • OPPO HA-1
  • Gustard DAC-X20U
  • DIYINHK DSD DXD 384kHz USB to I2S/DSD
  • JLsounds I2SoverUSB
  • Aune X1S 32BIT/384 DSD DAC
  • PS Audio NuWave DAC
  • Denon DA-300USB
  • Marantz HD-DAC1
  • Marantz SA-14S1
    *** USB audio devices made by Playback Designs**

And as I already stated, the Merlot plays all of my DSD files natively in this Linux distro.

#15

I think there is a miscommunication here. And it’s growing more and more aggressive.

I’ve been reading and studying this thread now for hours. I have nothing better to do than trying to understand you here. Some things I have to say.

-If your Linux distribution has a software player called wtfplayer, that supports current ‘playback designs’ usb audio devices, why do you assume it is the same as the Linux version in the Rose 130?
-The Playback Designs Merlot has been discontinued. Why? It says in their portfolio it has been specifically designed for their Syrah server.
-Why would you bring up the manual for wtfplayer which has nothing to do with Rose software. It even claims the Linux kernel does not support many usb devices. So how does this help?
-The Rose RS130 is a new product that has just been released. Do you really think it’s fair to hold the support crew accountable for backwards compatibility with discontinued products?

I have a cheaper RS250 and I have no problems playing native DSD either from DSF, or even DST within an iso-file (many small Android based DP’s can’t do that). I’m sending the output over USB to a Denafrips DAC.

I know this doesn’t help you, but I’m trying to analyse the problem. It might be an idea to ask the support team from Playback Designs? See how they respond?

PS: I’m rather late in my response I see just now. I won’t follow this thread from now.

#16

Hello,

I’m sorry that I didn’t update the reply from Playback Designs here, I directly messaged to Michael.
(I asked to Playback Designs about this)

I got reply from Playback Designs that Merlot supports Native DSD via DoP mode when using USB.
Native DSD would work if the source has latest version of Linux server, but RS130 does not.
We can check if RS130 can update its Linux server, but it’s such a big work to do, which may take a long time even if it’s possible.
So, for now, use DoP mode for DSD.
If you need more details about Merlot & Native DSD, contact Playback Designs.

This is the response I provided to Michael, and thankfully, Michael understood ROSE’s situation.

#17

Just to let everyone know, this was my message back to @ROSELOA Jan 30th…

Hello @ROSELOA,
Thank you for the thorough and candid response. I appreciate it very much.

While I am disappointed that I will not be able to play my DSD256 files, I will NOT be returning my RS130. This device plays music so very good!!! I have not heard anything that plays as well. It is without peer in my experience. I am very glad to have found out about it AND very glad to have support.

That said, I do hope you will update the Linux kernel at some point to current technology. BUT, please don’t break the beautiful music playing ability in the process!

Best Regards,
Michael

Best to all,
Michael

#18

I have the same problem. I’m using a DA2 DAC module built into a McIntosh MA12000 integrated AMP, with a premium USB cable. The only possible way to transfer DSD from ROSE130 to MA12000 is via DoP option (up to DSD256), Native DSD option converts DSD to PCM. I’m in a slightly better position because my DAC supports up to DSD512, so the DoP lowers the maximum supported DSD level one step to 256.
I am extremely disappointed with the level of support from ROSE and the interest they show to customers. If they finally answer to customer questions, the level of knowledge they express is desperate. I have several serious issues that they simply ignore to respond to. If you have any progress please update here…

#19

So sorry for the trouble you are experiencing with playing native DSD… I want to testify that my RS130 has no problem playing Native DSD 256 files thru USB2.0 or 3.0, both direct or thru ROSE’s optical HUB RS720 ports. Thus I believe thé problem you have IS NOT related to ROSE 's Linux implementation… It is a pity ROSE support was not able to check this and provide a correct answer, but let me know if I can help !

#20

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