RS130 won't output Native DSD on USB Output

[ROSELOA]

Hello,

In Merlot manual,

OS X (10.6.6 or later)
iTunes with or without plug-in to automate sample rate switching.
No driver software is required. OSX supports DSD playback only via
the DoP protocol which only supports single and double DSD rates.

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It seems that connecting OS X to Merlot supports DSD playback only through the DoP protocol. HiFiRose’s streamer plays audio based on Linux. It’s regrettable that there is no mention of Linux in the manual. By the way, if the external DAC cannot properly accept DSD, ROSE streamer automatically converts DSD to PCM and send it out.

[Michael.148]

Hello,

Why are you bringing up the manual’s reference to the Apple Mac OS X (10) operating system? It is irrelevant to the RS130’s operation with the Merlot. It is the MAC OS that only supports DSD by DoP, not the Merlot.

The Merlot accepts Native DSD through 256 as stated in the manual also.

I’ve also used the Merlot with Linux and it plays Native DSD perfectly without drivers. The only music player I tried was wtfplay. It uses a stripped down version of Linux and no drivers for the DAC.

The following is from the wtfplay manual;

2.3. Native DSD playback with USB sound devices

Unfortunately, the mainline Linux kernel does not support many USB devices in native DSD mode. One reason is that USB audio class specification does not define the DSD format. The short list of supported devices includes:

• iFi Audio micro/nano iDSD
• Matrix Audio X-Sabre
• Matrix Audio Mini-i Pro
• OPPO HA-1
• Gustard DAC-X20U
• DIYINHK DSD DXD 384kHz USB to I2S/DSD
• JLsounds I2SoverUSB
• Aune X1S 32BIT/384 DSD DAC
• PS Audio NuWave DAC
• Denon DA-300USB
• Marantz HD-DAC1
• Marantz SA-14S1
  *** USB audio devices made by Playback Designs**

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And as I already stated, the Merlot plays all of my DSD files natively in this Linux distro.

[Jeep]

I think there is a miscommunication here. And it’s growing more and more aggressive.

I’ve been reading and studying this thread now for hours. I have nothing better to do than trying to understand you here. Some things I have to say.

-If your Linux distribution has a software player called wtfplayer, that supports current ‘playback designs’ usb audio devices, why do you assume it is the same as the Linux version in the Rose 130?
-The Playback Designs Merlot has been discontinued. Why? It says in their portfolio it has been specifically designed for their Syrah server.
-Why would you bring up the manual for wtfplayer which has nothing to do with Rose software. It even claims the Linux kernel does not support many usb devices. So how does this help?
-The Rose RS130 is a new product that has just been released. Do you really think it’s fair to hold the support crew accountable for backwards compatibility with discontinued products?

I have a cheaper RS250 and I have no problems playing native DSD either from DSF, or even DST within an iso-file (many small Android based DP’s can’t do that). I’m sending the output over USB to a Denafrips DAC.

I know this doesn’t help you, but I’m trying to analyse the problem. It might be an idea to ask the support team from Playback Designs? See how they respond?

PS: I’m rather late in my response I see just now. I won’t follow this thread from now.

[ROSELOA]

Hello,

I’m sorry that I didn’t update the reply from Playback Designs here, I directly messaged to Michael.
(I asked to Playback Designs about this)

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I got reply from Playback Designs that Merlot supports Native DSD via DoP mode when using USB.
Native DSD would work if the source has latest version of Linux server, but RS130 does not.
We can check if RS130 can update its Linux server, but it’s such a big work to do, which may take a long time even if it’s possible.
So, for now, use DoP mode for DSD.
If you need more details about Merlot & Native DSD, contact Playback Designs.

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This is the response I provided to Michael, and thankfully, Michael understood ROSE’s situation.

[Michael.148]

Just to let everyone know, this was my message back to @ROSELOA Jan 30th…

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Hello @ROSELOA,
Thank you for the thorough and candid response. I appreciate it very much.

While I am disappointed that I will not be able to play my DSD256 files, I will NOT be returning my RS130. This device plays music so very good!!! I have not heard anything that plays as well. It is without peer in my experience. I am very glad to have found out about it AND very glad to have support.

That said, I do hope you will update the Linux kernel at some point to current technology. BUT, please don’t break the beautiful music playing ability in the process!

Best Regards,
Michael

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Best to all,
Michael

[nemanja.cvetkov]

I have the same problem. I’m using a DA2 DAC module built into a McIntosh MA12000 integrated AMP, with a premium USB cable. The only possible way to transfer DSD from ROSE130 to MA12000 is via DoP option (up to DSD256), Native DSD option converts DSD to PCM. I’m in a slightly better position because my DAC supports up to DSD512, so the DoP lowers the maximum supported DSD level one step to 256.
I am extremely disappointed with the level of support from ROSE and the interest they show to customers. If they finally answer to customer questions, the level of knowledge they express is desperate. I have several serious issues that they simply ignore to respond to. If you have any progress please update here…

[ZABOKS]

So sorry for the trouble you are experiencing with playing native DSD… I want to testify that my RS130 has no problem playing Native DSD 256 files thru USB2.0 or 3.0, both direct or thru ROSE’s optical HUB RS720 ports. Thus I believe thé problem you have IS NOT related to ROSE 's Linux implementation… It is a pity ROSE support was not able to check this and provide a correct answer, but let me know if I can help !

[ZABOKS]

[BorisM]

@nemanja.cvetkov

with a premium USB cable

No such thing exists.

@nemanja.cvetkov

Native DSD option converts DSD to PCM

Native DSD is… DSD.

@nemanja.cvetkov

I’m in a slightly better position because my DAC supports up to DSD512, so the DoP lowers the maximum supported DSD level one step to 256.

Maximum rate of DoP DSD transmission is determined by the max PCM rate DAC accepts.

[nemanja.cvetkov]

@BorisM

No such thing exists.

BorisM, I don’t get intention of your comments.

Premium USB cables exist if you have access to copper mill, extremely expensive machines, engineering knowledge and techniques developed over the years, creating cables by your own hands. What impact that cables have on sound quality is another story. I just wanted to point out that the cable is not the cause of the problem. Of course, the cheapest available cables should work as well.

Native DSD is the option selected in RS130 for transport method for DSD signal. And Native DSD is indeed DSD, again I am missing your point.

You are right about technical explanation for DoP DSD transmission rate. I am aware of that.

If you are able to help, you are welcome!

[nemanja.cvetkov]

Thanks ZABOKS! I appreciate your reply and testimony that RS130 is working with your MSB DAC. I can only assume the problem is related between RS130 <-> DA2 DAC communication protocols. I can only see that McIntosh DA2 DAC states:
Additionally, the DA2’s USB input can support native playback of up to DSD512, surpassing the DSD256 limit of the DA1. here:

McIntosh DA2 Digital Audio Module Upgrade Kit

What is happening under the hood I am unable to understand without ROSE support help.

Thanks again!

[BorisM]

@nemanja.cvetkov

Premium USB cables exist if you have access to copper mill, extremely expensive machines, engineering knowledge and techniques developed over the years, creating cables by your own hands. What impact that cables have on sound quality is another story. I just wanted to point out that the cable is not the cause of the problem. Of course, the cheapest available cables should work as well.

Well, exactly. There are two types of USB cables. Ones that conform to the USB specification, and ones that do not. That is not in any way correlated with price of the cable.

@nemanja.cvetkov

Native DSD is the option selected in RS130 for transport method for DSD signal. And Native DSD is indeed DSD, again I am missing your point.

So where does PCM conversion come into play?

This might be something where Rose would need to provide real help, but generally Native DSD works well from Windows if you have a device driver from the manufacturer. From Mac there is no Native DSD at all (with possible rare exceptions of manufacturers going to trouble of writing custom drivers). On Linux there might be Native DSD support for some devices if proper drivers were baked into the kernel. Since Rose runs Android, so basically Linux, there may be some DACs that RS130 can recognize and know that they can handle Native DSD , but as a general case I would look for confirmation from Rose that it even should output it…

[hififan]

I wanted to translate what my German friend said above. The RS130 puts out DSD bit perfect over USB 2.0. Only encapsulation is DoP v1.0, which doesn’t mean the actual stream is PCM. Paul McGowan from PS Audio wrote an article about this.

I guess in the pic above you can see that the RS130 does play the music file in DSD512 (that’s my comment). Also, I noticed that the volume is a lot lower when comparing max PCM and DSD playing through Roon.

[hififan]

I am not sure if this is correct though. Feels like I wasted a lot of $$ on the RS130. When I use a $170 Raspberry PI4 plus RoPieee software I built, I get native DSD to my DAC. With the $5k Rose RS130 I get the DoP Encapsulation. Sad to say, the little Raspberry sounds a lot better.

Raspberry:

RS130:

[ZABOKS]

It must be a configuration problem as my RS130 can output native DSD…

[hififan]

I believe I know all the configuration options / screens and hence wouldn’t know what to configure differently . Btw, other than max DSD rate, the options are configure exactly the same for the above two steamers with different outcomes.

[ZABOKS]

Did you try the USB3 ports as well ?

[hififan]

Yep… no difference. Thx, though. At least I am not alone with this issue as there are many threads about the same issue.

[jth1911]

How did you connect your ROSE 130 to your DA2 DAC and what firmware version are you running. I can’t get the ROSE 130 to recognize my DA2 DAC. It’s running v5.02 on my C53. Currently I’m using the Coax connection.

I’ve ordered a iFi iPurifier3 to see if this will resolve the issue.

James

[ROSEHAN]

@jth1911

We apologize for any inconvenience caused.

Please answer a few questions.

1. RS130 has 3 USB ports. Is your DAC not recognized even when connected to all USB ports?
2. Is the USB external hard drive not recognized when connected to your RS130 USB port?
3. Even if you connect another external DAC to your RS130, is it not recognized?
4. Have you changed the input setting to USB on RS130?