Seriously Considering RS130 purchase; have questions

[BorisM]

@Michael.148

I can, and many others can as well. Some can’t.

Funny, how that never happens in a real controlled test…

@Michael.148

I correctly identified it. He was flabbergasted

Cool story, bro.

@Michael.148

People perceive things differently. Some see more color, some less. Some see more clearly, some less. We could go on and on with these comparisons. But hearing is no different. Some hear more detail, some less.

Quite true. But if you “hear” the detail that is not there in the first place (which would be, for example, burn-in of a digital transport) that’s not better hearing. That’s hallucinating, as painful as it might be to realize.

@Michael.148

Music is so powerful. It stirs our emotions to extraordinary heights, puts smiles on our faces or turns on the tears.

Yup. All the magic is in the music. Not in believing that you know more about physics than people who spent their lives learning it.

@Michael.148

And for those of us who do and are, we just have to ignore those that don’t and aren’t.

Which is a perfectly valid choice , as long as you are wasting your own money, and not trying to convince other that they should waste theirs.

I do hope that you chose doctors who also do not believe in science, proper double blind tests of drugs, and all that other egghead nonsense. I heard that eye of newt and mandrake root, gathered by nubile virgins on a moonless night, cure all diseases!

@badgerdms

ABX testing in audio is absurd, in spite of what the “Church of Floyd Toole” has to say.

What is absurd is when someone who is not a vendor, trying to sell subpar equipment, pretends that he understands something better than people who made it their life’s work. But what do those eggheads know?! There’s a guy on the Internet, with IQ below room temperature (in Celsius) who declares in absurd!

@badgerdms

If you are convinced that you can’t hear a difference between the RS130 and the RS250 streaming to the same DAC (or if you only recognize a difference that can be heard in a DBT) then you are deaf.

If there were a real difference, it would be heard in a blind test. If it can only be heard when you see the device (or its price tag rather) then you might as well write a big fat RS130 on a shoebox and listen to that.But you have to be capable of logical thinking to realize that.

As for being deaf… I will bet another box of Belgian beer that you will not hear any difference between an MP3 file and HiRez. A typical “audiophile” hasn’t heard anything above 12KHz in at least 20 years.

[badgerdms]

@BorisM A typical dope heads into a product forum for the company’s most expensive “streaming-only” option and insists that one can’t differentiate that product from the company’s less expensive option. I’d take that bet, but pretty sure you couldn’t afford the “box of Belgian beer”, or anything else you are busy “setting straight with science” on here.

[BorisM]

Yup. 100% as expected. An idiot with degree in…what? Ambulance chasing? … is offended and goes on a rant “I haz moar moneys! Muh ears are moar golden! You poor plebes can’t hear what I can hear! Yous just jealous of muh moneys and muh earses!”

Really, this is not where you want to go, even if you knew what Belgian beer were and ever tried anything better than whatever Miller.

Let me guess, you’re bald, can’t see your weener over your belly, and drive a red Porsche hoping to pick up some chicks (to show them your super fancy stereo system, of course!). And it’s not working.

By the way, it’s Rose Products subforum, not RS130 forum. But you need to be slightly smarter than a rock to figure that out.

[badgerdms]

Oh poor baby, did I hit a nerve? You’re not much of a guesser, but thanks for playing.

Have fun hanging with your buddies running DBTs through your Denon AVRs. Chicks dig guys with meager means, so that’s bound to go well too.

[allvinyl]

I appreciate everyone’s passion that has certainly resulted in some interesting responses to my thread. At 73, I’ve been pursuing music and this hobby since I was old enough to sit on a stool at my uncle’s Slingerland kit.

Like I’m sure many of you do, I read a variety of forums dedicated to audio. The positive, enthusiastic expressions in favor of the RS130 are everywhere.

I will continue to post as my situation develops around a purchase. Again, I appreciate everyone’s feedback and look forward to continuing to read and contribute to this community.

[BorisM]

Aww, you could not afford that Porsche either?

Must be tough, trying to pretend to be rich when you can’t even afford a Wadax (no, that does not sound any better than a 130 or a 250 either, but a certain type of gold-diggers would actually dig it).

Try harder, maybe that major in basketweaving will come in handy one day.

[ZABOKS]

Why bother answering to someone who admits he cannot even hear any difference between an MP3 file and HiRez !?

[badgerdms]

Haven’t you stumbled into the wrong forum? Amir is always looking for new friends to influence and groom over at ASR. You would be a perfect fit.

[badgerdms]

An interesting point about comparing hearing with visual acuity. I’m not sure if you remember the visual test that was examining how many colors folks see in a spectrum of colors (which was measuring the number and distribution of cones in your eyes) that was running on social media a few years back, but it was really interesting. I think the average person saw about 25-30 distinct colors (where I fell) while the “tetrachromats” could see between 32-39. My wife sees all 39 and it’s why she can walk in any house that has used one of the major brand of paints, and tell you exactly which paint is on the wall–which gray or which beige (and there are a ton of both). It’s always been a little spooky when she does it and helps her quite a bit in the interior design aspect of her real estate practice.

It’s often the same with how we hear. I actually know a local dealer who claims he can actually “taste” the way things sound, similar to chromesthesia in which people hear colors. The point is that what individual folks like is often completely unique to them, from speaker driver types, to tubes vs solid state, to digital vs. analog. There is no “right answer” just the right answer for you. I always enjoy hearing about what people enjoy and can often tell if they have similar audio tastes to me or are completely the opposite and how to apply their comments to what I like.

Folks are usually respectful, the general exception being the “scientifically justified” listener who insists on absolutes which makes you wonder how they got into this hobby in the first place. It’s a hobby based on listening until listening yields results that don’t match the science (as they understand it), in which case it’s clearly just imagined. Whether it’s cables, DACS, streamers, or even amps suddenly nothing is valid with performing some specious testing methodology well-suited to testing cancer drugs but barely adequate when testing people’s auditory memory. It soon turns to straight out dogma, and for what? To insist that they are right? Kind of steals the joy from chatting about audio in most cases.

[Michael.148]

Well said. Thanks for sharing that.

[BorisM]

While anti-itellectualism has a long and proud (as it were) history in America, you do not really need to keep proving that you are terminally stupid; you’ve already made that (and that you are not too well off as well) quite clear.

Just stick to checking under your bed, in case that “amir” and his gang of evil scientists are hiding there, looking to take away your stash of green CD markers and cable lifters.

[BorisM]

While you’re enjoying your little circle jerk, you could have tried a little thought experiment (yeah, I know, though… it’s only for those nasty scientists, not golden-eared audiophiles). Let’s imagine, for a moment, that cables made any audible difference (they do not) and there were at least one person who could tell e.g. a Kimber from a Monster other than you, in your imagination (there isn’t).

Had that been the case, at least one of the cable peddlers would have hired that one unique person and would drag them to every HiFi show, where they would easily distinguish cables in a blind test, putting all those stupid know-nothing eggheads to shame. But somehow, not only does it never happen, but if you ask any one of them to do such a test at the show, you will be thrown out of the room. Makes one wonder why is that…

But obviously such a thought experiment will go right over the head of anyone buying directional CAT7 Ethernet cables, fidelizers, or audio streamers for more than $300 or so it would cost one to get a mini PC with USB output.

[badgerdms]

If you are the poster boy for “intellectualism” count me out. However, I do appreciate your active imagination!

[Michael.148]

Hmmm, what does that say about you? Last I looked, the streamer you use, the RS250, costs $2500+. You have exposed your duplicity. Thought experiment anyone?

In actuality, I feel sorrow for you because of your efforts in hostility trying to harm others, making them feel bad. I do feel bad, but not because of you, but for you. I hope some joy and peace come your way.

[BorisM]

@badgerdms

for “intellectualism” count me out.

Of course. You’re still upset that you can’t give wedgies to the class nerd anymore.

@Michael.148

Last I looked, the streamer you use, the RS250, costs $2500+. You have exposed your duplicity. Thought experiment anyone?

I told you to stay away from anything requiring thought; it’s a completely foreign concept to you.

1. 250 (and 520, I have that one as well) are full-featured players. Both do everything a 130 does (just as well) plus provide analogue outut. Even at speaker level in case of the 520.

2. I appreciate the build quality (if not the software), looks and feel, ergonomics, and features, and can afford a nice stereo in each room (not all of them from Rose; I like the variety), so why not. Unlike some hallucinating clowns here I just don’t run around claiming that they do something that they do not, and can not according to laws of physics and to people who designed the entire digital audio reproduction chain. But of course what can those stupid scientists know, when you and your double-digit IQ pal have said that they are wrong!

I don’t feel any sorrow for you, idiots are usually quite content and happy, but I do feel sorry for your mother, she has to tie your shoelaces everyday.

There’s a big difference between ignorance, which often can be excused – not everyone does, or even needs to know how computers work, Ethernet standards, or intricacies of electronics, and can be easily snookered into buying fidelizers, CD markers, and stand-alone streamers. Militant stupidity of people using “science” as an insult because it does not let them be special snowflakes, able to hear what even bats can not, has no excuse though.

[badgerdms]

“250 (and 520, I have that one as well) are full-featured players. Both do everything a 130 does (just as well) plus provide analogue outut. Even at speaker level in case of the 520”

In fact neither one does what the 130 is designed for “just as well”. The ability to tailor the unit to an external clock, output to I2S, and accept a fiber input are all things the 520 can’t do. And despite all your “advanced” knowledge of “how computers work”, people can clearly hear the sonic differences between the 130 and other players in the Rose lineup.

We hooked up the RS130 and RS150B (which I used to own) together into the same DAC, two different times. One time was going into the internal DAC of a Technics SU-R1000, both using the USB outputs on each Rose and synching the music streaming from Qobuz using Roon. The 150 was hooked up via ethernet, while the 130 was using the fiber input. We could switch back and forth, which revealed very obvious differences between the two. All five people in the room liked the 130 better. They didn’t sound the same, at all. While both were really good, everyone could hear the differences.

We repeated the experiment at my dealers running both units set up as before (except this time using the coax outs) through a DCS DAC into Rockport speakers. Same results. It’s why I traded in my 150 and bought the 130. While we were there we also compared both to other streamers in-house (Innuos, Aurender), and if you think all streamers sound the same you don’t have a clue. There is a reason a lot of companies who build higher-end streamers (and some not as high-end) are rushing to add fiber inputs into their streaming gear–in addition to improved power supplies, better parts, and other things that will make their product better. You know, people with actual engineering and physics degrees.

You can prattle on about double-blind tests all you want, but instantly swapping back and forth reveals obvious differences not colored by people’s audio memory (or lack thereof). But it’s a little tough to take anyone seriously who has purchased an excellent product from a manufacturer, but who then insists that anyone who goes into a higher-tiered product by the same manufacturer is an idiot. And that’s before we even get into the giant elephant in the room, and that’s that you are a complete jackass who thinks nothing of insulting anyone who disagrees with him.

Time for you to go back to being outwitted by Moose and Squirrel.

[BorisM]

@badgerdms

In fact neither one does what the 130 is designed for “just as well”. The ability to tailor the unit to an external clock, output to I2S, and accept a fiber input are all things the 520 can’t do.

And, not at all surprisingly, none of those things is worth crap.They are there only so that clueless would spend more money for absolutely no benefit.

@badgerdms

people can clearly hear the sonic differences between the 130 and other players in the Rose lineup.

Uh huh. but somehow only when they see the price tag of the device used.

@badgerdms

We could switch back and forth, which revealed very obvious differences between the two. All five people in the room liked the 130 better. They didn’t sound the same, at all. While both were really good, everyone could hear the differences.

Non-blind testing and whatever imagined differences you’ve heard aren’t worth anything. Might as well be telling about the night and day improvement you got from staining your CDs with a green marker.

@badgerdms

and if you think all streamers sound the same you don’t have a clue. There is a reason a lot of companies who build higher-end streamers (and some not as high-end) are rushing to add fiber inputs into their streaming gear–in addition to improved power supplies, better parts, and other things that will make their product better. You know, people with actual engineering and physics degrees.

Companies do it for a very simple reason, because there are enough clueless fools willing to pay more money for useless things like fiber inputs, I2S outputs, and fancy clocks.

Oh, and colorful fuses, magic crystals, and $50K power cables. But then people pay for psychic advice, too.

@badgerdms

You can prattle on about double-blind tests all you want, but instantly swapping back and forth reveals obvious differences not colored by people’s audio memory (or lack thereof).

That makes no sense whatsoever, but then so does anything else you wrote. If you see what you are switching to, your test is worthless.

@badgerdms

But it’s a little tough to take anyone seriously who has purchased an excellent product from a manufacturer, but who then insists that anyone who goes into a higher-tiered product by the same manufacturer is an idiot.

Truth hurts? 250 is a good DAC, and as good a transport as any other on the market. 150 has a bigger screen, and more outputs, so it might have some advantages if you need balanced outs. 130… If it cost less than a c250, but a good margin, would have been a great product, if you already have decent DAC. At a higher price… well, you got fleeced. Too bad.

[badgerdms]

Sure, when sound stages get wider and deeper it’s totally in our imagination. There comes a point in science (especially in this hobby), where unable to explain obvious differences in what they hear, folks fall back on the DBT mantra and insist it’s impossible. At that point, blind belief in science becomes religion. The Church of Science. Welcome Pastor Boris.

You sound a lot like a network engineer, something I have a ton of experience with as I have three of them working for me. Just enough science to be dangerous, not enough to build or create anything of note.

[BorisM]

@badgerdms

Sure, when sound stages get wider and deeper it’s totally in our imagination.

Sorry to say that, but when your teacher told you that you are a Very Special Snowflake, she did not mean that you get to have your own laws of nature, she just meant that you’re a special child and she will go easy on your grades.

If the sound stage gets “wider and deeper” (something that’s affected by the transport to a slightly lesser degree than by the Sun being in Aquarius, or your bank account balance) then it does so regardless of whether you see the price tag or not.

I quite can picture a bunch of folks with degrees in puppetry, ambulance chasing, and tits enhancement, none of wehom would tell a difference between MP3 and DXD and haven’t heard anything above 12KHz in couple decades, sitting at the dealer, thoughtfully looking at price tags, and competing in most flowery description of their hallucinations based on the said price tag.

[Burle]

Boris, expirienced sound engeneer here. I agree with you in majority of your conclusions but one - blind test. Blind test is overrated. For instance - try to blind test three devices in order - device 1, device 2, device 1, device 3, device 1. You have to tell listeners that there are five devices on test. You will be shocked that probably all listeners will find great differences between device 1 on first, third and fifth position in the test. So, blind test will not tell us much about what we want to know.

But, for digital sources, we have another ultimative test - it is called a null test. This test will tell us, with no possibility to be wrong, if there are differences between devices and exactly what the difference is.