Who are you? Measurement fraction, or believers?

#7

Sure,

But I’m in the camp of where I believe that some people believe that they are hearing a difference.
This could be due to either a placebo effect… or that they did hear something. (psycho-acoustics) And because we are all different… not everyone will hear a difference. Note that whether they like it is a different issue.

Now if they actually heard a difference, then why? And that’s the issue. What’s the science behind that?

Some who follow Amir at ASR watched him test different op amps. He ran his ‘tests’ which showed that both op-amps performed as expected yet didn’t show why they would sound different.
If you question his methodology… you get banned.

The point is that differences in your music’s chain will cause a change in what you hear… to a point.
If there are issues in your chain… they may hide the differences so that you don’t hear it. Not to mention room interference.

Of course Bonte just wanted to stir the pot.

#8

In this context, I was thinking specifically of the 520 model.

Since it is an all-in-one unit—and assuming one uses it as intended—the only cables I currently need are a couple of RCA audio cables (in my case) for the pre-outs (specifically for subwoofers). We’ve already discussed speaker cables.

Apart from that, I once bought a power cable—one of those special “eclipse edition” types—but I couldn’t detect any “audible” differences whatsoever, so I sent it back. The simple fact is that swapping cables takes too long, and the human “mind” is notoriously bad at retaining a precise memory of sound quality over time.

Even when using the exact same cable, different musical tracks—or music in general—vary so much that your “brain” simply doesn’t manage to store a consistent reference point.

Furthermore, perception is heavily influenced by your physical state and the time of day:

Did you sleep poorly? Have you been fueling yourself with nothing but processed junk food? Or perhaps you’ve spent a long time in a noisy environment (like at work)? (Oh—wait, that last one probably doesn’t apply to you, seeing as you just sit at a desk at home.) In such states, the sound will seem completely different compared to when you first wake up in the morning, feeling physically refreshed and regenerated.

Try this experiment:

Spend two hours cutting firewood with a chainsaw while wearing headphones!

You’ll notice that the music sounds muffled—or perhaps overly bright—and seems to lack bass. This is a side effect of the hearing protection; the ear defenders exert pressure on your ears, effectively sealing off the ear canals due to that external compression.

Maybe I’m just an alien, but I notice this phenomenon every single day—whether I’ve slept poorly or have spent a long period in a noisy environment (even while wearing hearing protection).

In that regard, we all made a mistake during our youth. Sure, we were young and wanted to experience everything—to see and hear it all—but all those nights spent at discos and concerts actually caused damage to our hearing back then.

So, it seems you are clearly a true believer—even if it turns out to be nothing more than a placebo effect.

Well, good luck with the cable hunt then—but start with the 2k range; anything below that just isn’t worth it at all.

Cheers!

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#9

While there’s you, your emotion.
The Room and how it impacts the sound from the speakers.

But the question you raised is cables.

The issue is that you can measure the differences in the cable. The question is if you can hear it.
If the rest of your gear isn’t that great, or the room’s acoustics have an impact… you may not hear a difference. The differences can be subtle. And then its a question of what you prefer.

I prefer to make my own speaker cables.
I have been using some bulk Audioquest that I picked up years ago on sale and for my next set of cables. I will probably switch up to Mogami W3104 to test it. (There are a couple of other brands I may test too.)

In the states you can get bulk W3104 for under $7.00 a foot. Then there’s the connectors. Lots of options.
Then the shrinkwrap the cable covering which would be around $1.00 (USD) a foot. So lets say you don’t make any mistakes. Budget $250 for the bulk wire. (More than enough) then your connectors is where you can blow the budget.

So for $350 you can make speaker cables that will rival your $2K ones.
You can also choose different wire, connectors and make them for less.

#10

Nice deflection from a question about power cables to bleating about USB and a completely unrelated issue of trying to power a DAC from a phone. Which has nothing at all to do with USB cables, and any mythical differences in sound, and everything with using a device correctly.

Suuure. What could electrical engineers possibly now better than Mikey the middle manager?!!

What are Spotify’s system requirements, Mikey?

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#11

Well, thank goodness tomorrow is a public holiday here; otherwise, I wouldn’t have replied, Mikey.

First off, I once again have to agree with Boris—even if you don’t like it. The discussion was about power cables. Furthermore, they saw my speaker cables. That thread is currently locked. Regarding the speaker cables, I told them that I paid €300 for two 5-meter lengths and that I no longer have to mess around with them on my own. I don’t think you actually read it at all! Even with these cables, I can’t hear any difference. What is measurable is light-years removed from anything you could possibly hear.

:arrow_up: And please, also take a look at the readout for my cable.

Speaking of which:
Even though I belong to the “measurement camp,” just because something can be measured—and the differences are visible on the test equipment—that by no means implies that it can actually be heard!

#12

:rofl:…Well, Mikey, you have only yourself to blame for this.
In my view, anyone who parrots everything they hear from random “YouTube engineers”—or other dubious sources on the World Wide Web—or who actually puts their faith in such things (and there we have it again: faith) is, unfortunately, beyond help.

The wound is being torn open again and again, Mikey!

Or: Salt is being rubbed into the wound—over and over again!

The only difference would be to admit one’s mistakes sometimes. I imagine that if you did, more people would perceive you—and appreciate you—in a completely different light.

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#13

Sorry I was talking in general.
But even just for power cables, the answer again is yes… but with the caveat it depends.

  1. What are you driving?
  2. Grounded/Ungrounded?
  3. Components.
  4. Wall Socket. (Which isn’t a part of the cable.)

Now in terms of the components… you have to consider the gauge of the wire.
Most household appliances will come with 14gauge wire.
So w a typical 15A circuit you’ll see 14ga wiring in the wall which is code.
You could see 12ga wiring which exceeds code for 15A circuits but required for 20A lines.

So you can see your black plastic cords (generic big box stuff) w 14ga wiring inside.
Or if you are going to draw a bit more current, they will have 12ga wiring.
(You will see this in some computer power supplies.)

Then you have the connections.
Better quality parts here do make a difference… to a point. And to be clear… you’re comparing them to what is known as ‘builder basics’.

Which gets into the wall outlets.
Builder basics have a lower quality parts, along w loser fitting. This is why some rave about ‘hospital grade’ outlets. There’s nothing special… just better components and a tighter fit. (Plus color and markings) You don’t want that battery powered IV drip to get unplugged.

Now the big question… will you hear a difference? The answer again is maybe.
Should you care? Again the answer is maybe.

#14

McIntosh recommends using the supplied cable for its amps and plugging it directly into the wall outlet. Their word is good enough for me. That said, all of my breaker panels are fitted with surge protectors.

#15

And that’s fine.
I have a bunch of spare power cables that I’ve picked up over the years.
I tend to save the heavier gauged cables. I’ve sometimes used them to replace the cables that shipped w the product. Mostly w computer equipment.

I suspect Bonte was asking this question as a bit of a tease for ‘audiophiles’ who spend $$$ on power cables.

#16

14-gauge wire (referring to the cross-section of the individual conductors) is the standard for amplifiers and subwoofers. In our system, this corresponds to 1.5 mm² per conductor; this type of cable is designated—and functions—as a C13 cable, where the “3” indicates the number of conductors involved. Specifically, the third conductor serves as the protective earth connection. My subwoofers and other audio components all utilize this type of cable. Other devices—such as monitors or CD players—also typically use C13 connectors, but with a smaller conductor cross-section (usually 3 × 0.75 mm², or 3 × 1.00 mm² for devices with slightly higher power consumption). However, amplifiers—whether solid-state amps (which we affectionately call “trannies”) or tube amps—invariably require C13 cables with 1.5 mm² conductors due to their high power draw.

Even my 3400 and 520 units are fitted with C13 connectors, simply because I repurposed cables that I had previously used with other equipment. The original power cables for both units are still safely stored in their respective boxes.

However, this does not mean that I own any of those expensive, audiophile-grade power cables—the kind supposedly “handcrafted during the ebb and flow of the North Sea tides”! They are just bog-standard C13 cables (1.5 mm² per conductor) featuring a protective earth connection.

And why do you bring up “grounding”? Here, all such equipment is grounded by default and must comply with VDE standards. That is why our wall outlets and plugs feature “SchuKo” (protective contact) connectors. The only exceptions are small appliances using C7 connectors (CEE 7)—rated, I believe, up to 2.5 amps—which utilize a “Europlug” design that lacks a protective earth connection. These are typically used for devices such as LED bedside lamps, electric shavers, or mobile phone chargers.

#17

Exactly!

That’s what I meant above.

Rose certainly wouldn’t ship a high-end device with a poor-quality power cable. The same goes for Mac. That would be sheer corporate suicide.

#18

Ok… so you’re getting to be like Boris.
Reread what I said.
In the US 15A circuits are the norm, w 20A circuits for the larger appliances.
So for 15A you will see 14ga which is the minimum required gauge of wire. You can use 12ga which is the minimum required wire for the 20A circuits.

So when you are going to be pulling more amps / power… you’re going to want a power cable that uses the larger gauge wires.

Why do I bring up grounding?
Are you telling me that you don’t have audio gear that uses an ungrounded cable?
You know like a blueray player? (That’s just one thing that I thought of off the top of my head. You could see other gear.

#19

Mikey!

  1. You didn’t say it—you typed it!

  2. A standard household outlet in Germany is typically fused at 16 amps (A). At a voltage of 230 volts, this results in a maximum load capacity of 3,680 watts (230 V × 16 A) per circuit.

Of course, three phases are available for really “power-hungry” appliances, such as a stove or a high-voltage connection.

I only have the 3 phases for the stove.

So, if I want to integrate a PA system for stadium sound here, I’ll get a high-voltage emergency generator. We’re talking about apartments, not houses with attached workshops where welding or woodworking is done on high-voltage machines like routers or circular saws.

I can easily get by with the 3.6 kWh that applies to a single circuit (outlet :arrow_up:).

I don’t know the total power consumption of all my devices plugged into a socket. I just did a rough calculation a while back. In any case, I’ll never reach 3.6 kWh—that much is certain.

#20

Yup!

The Rose, the Lyngdorf, and two subwoofers—all with ground connections.
The mobile phone charger, the MacBook (with a different charger), and the Fritz!Box power supply (used for audio, since it provides the internet connection)—all ungrounded, as they use small-appliance plugs (Europlugs).

#21

The US is different.
Your typical household electrical is 15A, you then have 20A single pull and then double pull circuit breakers.

You have various outlets based on the power draw. Your typical appliance , electrical gear is going to be Nema 5-15 and its a 15A circuit w 14ga wires in the wall.

You can go w 20A circuits , single pull or double pull and then go w different outlets in the wall. I have NEMA 5-20 outlets for washing machine, and for my power conditioner/battery backup for my mini rack. Then a different connection for the dryer …

But getting back to audio gear. Depending on the power requirements you will see your bog standard power cables mostly using 14ga wiring while those that would pull more power… (e.g. 1000watt power supply for a PC) will have 12ga wiring.

Also while not an audio thing… depending where you live in the US, the building code will vary. In Chicago, no ROMEX wiring in conduit… yet in places like TX and elsewhere you can use ROMEX.

Of course none of this matters for you in Germany.

As to the impact of the power cable on sound… YMMV again like speaker cables… there are several factors… (which you can see above. )

#22

That is what I replied to the forum member—that if he moves to the States, he can use a power cable like that.

But you, of course, immediately drifted off into a whole different atmosphere again! :hugs:

Yup, it’s the same situation here—except that all our standard household wall outlets are identical, and power-hungry appliances—such as clothes dryers, washing machines, and so on—must all be designed to be compatible with the standard residential power grid. As previously mentioned, the electric stove—which draws the most amperage—is protected by a three-phase circuit.

Beyond that, you get into industrial standards, where large machinery is powered by high-current industrial supply lines. The standard there is as follows: an industrial power supply (three-phase current, 400V), when protected by a typical 16A fuse, delivers a maximum output of approximately 11 kW. However, that has absolutely nothing to do with our small audio system.

The only component in my setup rated for up to 400V is the main switch in the fuse box (which provides protection across the 230–400V range and up to 40A).

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#23

There is one factor: either the power cable can supply the necessary power, and the device sounds as designed, or it does not (and the device doesn’t work as designed; and your house possibly burns down). You might as well be arguing that power cables affect the sound because if you take one out altogether there will be no sound at all! (Ha! Ha! Take that, ASR eggheads! Mikey had shown you again!!!)

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#24

Just being thorough.
The issue is that if I say something and was not complete a certain someone would then jump in and say something…

So its easier to just talk about it.
And again its not just the cable but the connections and of course your underlying power.

#25

:man_facepalming:t2: Oh Mikey, please stop.
You’re acting as if you buy new cables every day, swap them around, and then actually perceive differences in sound. :laughing:

#26

@Bonte
You start this thread mocking people who believe that cables matter and then ask if they can be justified.

I responded in detail about how cables… all cables can impact your sound.
How much will depend on several factors and whether or not you can hear them.

While I make my own cables… I’ve also planned out upgrades I may make down the road, including priced them out for specific components.

I’ve also thought about making my own power cable, but less reluctant to pull the trigger.